AI fails

[PurplePenguin]

Of course they can (I didn't say they don't), but if university degrees aren't improving skills in that area, then they are a waste of time.

I don't think they improve that at all, but therein lies our difference of opinion.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I don't think they improve that at all, but therein lies our difference of opinion.

If the degree courses are not challenging one’s ability for critical thinking or intellectual flexibility then they are just learning by rote. Great for doing the basics but not so good at getting people who can go beyond that into development or managerial roles.

I was in charge of graduate recruitment at a large company for several years and the annual milk run was an eye-opener when it came to graduates who were technically competent but clearly had trouble problem-solving.

 

[BoldonLad]

This is important joined up thinking.

If all kids learned e.g. recorder/ukulele, singing or whatever, like team sports it helps with inter personal interaction and empathy.

Moving forward this may reduce the epidemic of mental health issues that are getting young people signed off from work and claiming benefits later on.

Isn’t Wes going to fix the latter?

 

[BoldonLad]

If the degree courses are not challenging one’s ability for critical thinking or intellectual flexibility then they are just learning by rote. Great for doing the basics but not so good at getting people who can go beyond that into development or managerial roles.

I was in charge of graduate recruitment at a large company for several years and the annual milk run was an eye-opener when it came to graduates who were technically competent but clearly had trouble problem-solving.

Would I be right in saying that could be summarised as “some degrees are more worthwhile than others”?

If yes, isn’t the trick to identify them, and promote them at the expense of the rest?

 

[Rusty Nails]

Would I be right in saying that could be summarised as “some degrees are more worthwhile than others”?

If yes, isn’t the trick to identify them, and promote them at the expense of the rest?

Without knowing how you define worthwhile the answer is no.

Worthwhile might be defined differently by, say, economists, social workers, industrialists, academics, historians, television producers, right-wingers, left-wingers, etc. etc. (who are all important parts of and contributors to our society)

 

[BoldonLad]

Without knowing how you define worthwhile the answer is no.

Worthwhile might be defined differently by, say, economists, social workers, industrialists, academics, historians, television producers, right-wingers, left-wingers, etc. etc. (who are all important parts of and contributors to our society)

Which was rather my point 😊

 

[Rusty Nails]

Which was rather my point 😊

A point that was a bit too subtle for me, sorry.

 

[matticus]

Would I be right in saying that could be summarised as “some degrees are more worthwhile than others”?

If yes, isn’t the trick to identify them, and promote them at the expense of the rest?

With the current payment (and loans) model, surely the market is deciding?

 

[BoldonLad]

With the current payment (and loans) model, surely the market is deciding?

It may be so.

I am not aware of any studies which suggest how students decide which degree to study and/or which University to grace with their debt.

I do think that lots of young people are being horribly mislead by the mantra of a degree for everyone, but, other than anecdotal evidence, I have no proof.

 

[PurplePenguin]

It may be so.

I am not aware of any studies which suggest how students decide which degree to study and/or which University to grace with their debt.

I do think that lots of young people are being horribly mislead by the mantra of a degree for everyone, but, other than anecdotal evidence, I have no proof.

This is the bit that concerns me. I don't know many kids of that age, but of the ones I do know:
- One didn't go to university, but got a job at some insurance firm in the City. After three years, he had no debt, a reasonably paid job, three years of experience and a lot of opportunity. Meanwhile his friends had lots of debt, no jobs and no experience. In fairness, he was not the academic type, but excelled at building relationships.
- One had outstanding GSCEs and A-Levels, went to a top university and is now struggling to get a job.
- One did a degree funded by PwC. She's now a qualified accountant with minimal debt and good career prospects.

 

[Psamathe]

This is the bit that concerns me. I don't know many kids of that age, but of the ones I do know:
- One didn't go to university, but got a job at some insurance firm in the City. After three years, he had no debt, a reasonably paid job, three years of experience and a lot of opportunity. Meanwhile his friends had lots of debt, no jobs and no experience. In fairness, he was not the academic type, but excelled at building relationships.
- One had outstanding GSCEs and A-Levels, went to a top university and is now struggling to get a job.
- One did a degree funded by PwC. She's now a qualified accountant with minimal debt and good career prospects.

Even back in my day (pre student loan era) if you wanted money then you were better not going to University.

These days probably even more the case, particularly as degree courses are not what they used to be (personal experience of my own many years ago degrees and degree courses I've done more recently.

 

[briantrumpet]

This is the bit that concerns me. I don't know many kids of that age, but of the ones I do know:
- One didn't go to university, but got a job at some insurance firm in the City. After three years, he had no debt, a reasonably paid job, three years of experience and a lot of opportunity. Meanwhile his friends had lots of debt, no jobs and no experience. In fairness, he was not the academic type, but excelled at building relationships.
- One had outstanding GSCEs and A-Levels, went to a top university and is now struggling to get a job.
- One did a degree funded by PwC. She's now a qualified accountant with minimal debt and good career prospects.

I'm not going to argue that 'degrees for all' (going from 10% or the population to 50ish) has not had, shall we say, mixed outcomes, and isn't the right choice for everyone who goes. But I don't think the answer is to make degrees more industry-focused/led, or certainly not in all cases.

 

[BoldonLad]

This is the bit that concerns me. I don't know many kids of that age, but of the ones I do know:
- One didn't go to university, but got a job at some insurance firm in the City. After three years, he had no debt, a reasonably paid job, three years of experience and a lot of opportunity. Meanwhile his friends had lots of debt, no jobs and no experience. In fairness, he was not the academic type, but excelled at building relationships.
- One had outstanding GSCEs and A-Levels, went to a top university and is now struggling to get a job.
- One did a degree funded by PwC. She's now a qualified accountant with minimal debt and good career prospects.

My worst experience of the degree system was one of my contract jobs in my working days. As an “oldie” I was keeping a legacy system alive, at an outsourcer (a favourite of PE). Most of the clerical staff were youngsters, 25-30, with media study degrees from the local university. All earning NMW or just above. What a waste.

 

[PurplePenguin]

I'm not going to argue that 'degrees for all' (going from 10% or the population to 50ish) has not had, shall we say, mixed outcomes, and isn't the right choice for everyone who goes. But I don't think the answer is to make degrees more industry-focused/led, or certainly not in all cases.

I'm certainly not arguing to abolish academia and associated undergraduate courses, but I think there are a lot of people that have been sold a lie and would have been better off doing something else.

It's interesting to see how the minimum wage is getting close to some graduate starting salaries.

 

[briantrumpet]

I'm certainly not arguing to abolish academia and associated undergraduate courses, but I think there are a lot of people that have been sold a lie and would have been better off doing something else.

Yes, not arguing with that, even if we do have different views on what university education should be focused on. Having watched the university sector enlarge out of all recognition, basically on the back of debt incurred by students, I can see it's been 'good business' for the sector up until now, and I suspect that there's going to be a period of downwards adjustment.