Assisted dying

[bobzmyunkle]

Wikipedia.
Some political theorists, such as Edmund Burke, believe that part of the duty of a representative is not simply to follow the wishes of the electorate but also to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters

A majority of the electorate are pro hanging.

 

[Psamathe]

Wikipedia.
Some political theorists, such as Edmund Burke, believe that part of the duty of a representative is not simply to follow the wishes of the electorate but also to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters

A majority of the electorate are pro hanging.

I agree in a way but in UK system isn't that at least in part the reason for the House of Lords, to add protections avoiding "Tyranny of the Majority".

Maybe it comes more to MPs voting in the best interests of their constituents so the MPs personal ideoloigy eg religious beliefs are not a good grounds for how their should vote.

Ian

 

[AuroraSaab]

A majority of the electorate are pro hanging.

Exactly. And some communities who make up certain constituencies would likely be against this bill and also anti abortion. If you want your rep to mirror their constituents views every time you should be careful what you wish for.

Were the MP'S who voted against Brexit when their own electorate were pro Brexit anti-democratic? "Around one in six MPs chose to defy the will of their constituents when the Commons voted on the first stage of the historic Brexit bill..".

https://www.businessinsider.com/mps-defied-constituencies-brexit-article-50-bill-2017-2

If MP's aren't allowed to vote according to their own judgement or conscience then we might as well have a button on the remote and make every decision a mini referendum on Saturday night tv. You could do away with parliament altogether.

 

[Regular.Cyclist]

We currently treat animals in the UK more humanely than we do humans and something must be done to redress this. It must, however, be a very carefully crafted law with appropriate safeguards.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

I was only pointing out that representative democracy doesn't mean that MPs necessarily vote in accordance with the opinion of their constituents.

have a button on the remote and make every decision a mini referendum on Satirday night tv. You could do away with parliament altogether.

Vote Off? Strictly Come Voting?

Saturday night might not be the best time as it's the time when people are more likely to have had a drink or two.

 

[icowden]

A majority of the electorate are pro hanging.

Any actual evidence of that?

 

[Beebo]

The MPs have voted to pass through to the committee stage.
The bill will get revised and amended now, before any further votes.

 

[Bromptonaut]

A majority of the electorate are pro hanging.

Are they?

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Ok @icowden and @Bromptonaut you got me

In the UK, surveys have shown that continued support for capital punishment fell from 74% in 1986 to 65% in 1996, then to 50% in 2007. It finally dropped below 50% in 2014.

 

[Beebo]

I suspect you might get a majority to agree on a very specific issue, such as the Lee Rigby killings, where the crime was horrific and guilt wasn’t in question.
But a general blanket yes or no will be difficult as most people now have never known a country with hanging, where as back in 86 it was still well within recent memory of most adults. The last hanging being in 64.
You would have to be in your 70s now to have any recollection of it.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Still over 50% support, for certain crimes anyway, in this survey:

It's interesting though that attitudes to capital punishment changed because of certain cases, where it was felt it had been used for people that the public felt didn't deserve it, like Timothy Evans and Ruth Ellis. I hope we aren't in the same position in 10 years time with assisted dying - seeing unintended consequences to what we have made available. It's much harder to put it right afterwards than before passing the legislation.

 

[AuroraSaab]

My understanding is that it's only a "2nd Reading". If it passes it's still going to go to Committee stages.

The sponsor, ie Leadbetter, gets to pick the Committee...

 

[Psamathe]

I was only pointing out that representative democracy doesn't mean that MPs necessarily vote in accordance with the opinion of their constituents.


Vote Off? Strictly Come Voting?

Saturday night might not be the best time as it's the time when people are more likely to have had a drink or two.

I find it an interesting aspect to our democratic processes, and one where people regard "democracy" in different ways.

My personal view is that our MPs are elected to act in the best interests of their electorate and that does not always mean following the majority (not that they know the "majority" and not succumbing) to the "tyranny of the majority". But also it would mean not following their own personal ideology and beliefs eg not following their personal religious beliefs particularly where only a minority of their electorate also has those same religious beiefs.

But also recognising that our system has additional safeguards and scrutiny in the House of Lords. But that raises additional questions about the make-up of the House of Lords which seems to stumble from poor membership scheme to poor membership scheme eg the system of aristocracy and inherited seats is daft in modern society but them political stuffing equally daft, reward for personal support from senior political figures is tantamount to bribery (prime example Ms Dorries expectations for supporting Johnson and her reaction when the expectation wasn't met). But an elected House of Lords would in effect suffer the same lack of expertise, lies, deception, etc. that the Commons currently suffers from.

Maybe we'd all be happier with the House of Lords safeguards if a sensible membership system could be found.

Ian

 

[Psamathe]

The sponsor, ie Leadbetter, gets to pick the Committee...

Don't forget that the Committee don't get the final word and that there are still several votes for anything to pass into law.

I'd expect that were she to chose a bad/biased committee then their findings and the bill would be rejected by more wavering MPs at the 3rd reading. Those MPs voting for the bill at the 2nd reading can still vote against it come the 3rd reading.

Similarly, poor Committee would encourage the House of Lords to reject the bill andHoL are under no pressure to pass anything as it's not in any manifesto, not related to finance. But a Committee that makes a proper investigation, that makes sensible ammendments, etc. that is seen as made up of appropriate members will help the bill to pass.

So I expect a Committee membership that will properly scrutinise and amend appropriately.

Ian

 

[presta]

Plus people can even coerce themselves eg "I don't want to be a burden".

Anyone tempted to think they're not a burden only has to look at society's refusal to fund social care properly.

We (as a society) should be improving palliative care whatever any decision about assisted dying

Assisted dying makes that redundant, nobody's going provide billions more for palliative care now there's a cheaper option.

Do Not Resuscitate notices were placed on patients without their permission

Leadbeater was flatly denying that happens on the radio a couple of days ago.

Please explain how that would happen if the UK bill became law.

Leadbeater said on the radio that there won't be any creep because the law can't be changed. So WTF have they just voted for this afternoon if it's not a change in the law?

Even coroners are saying it gives them no opportunity to investigate whether there was coercion