Burnham

[briantrumpet]

BTW, I definitely went as 1) I wanted to learn more about music 2) I might as well, given it was fully funded, accommodation and all (albeit at £35 per week all in for accommodation and three cooked meals a day).

 

[BoldonLad]

Worth noting that benefits based on contributions (eg State Pensions) are not funded from general taxation and are legally ring-fenced and often run a surplus. Surplus can be/is loaned to the Government. NICs do not go into general taxation "pot".

I have heard/read this claim before, is it actually true?

 

[Pross]

As someone who left school at 16 and was paid to get hands on experience whilst studying for an HNC on day release I’m all in favour of the apprenticeship route and, even though I was definitely more academic than practical, teaching skills to youngsters looking to enter the workplace (alongside the key subjects) definitely gets my approval. All the better if they could link maths and English into the technical skills so they can see real-world importance.

 

[icowden]

BTW, I definitely went as 1) I wanted to learn more about music 2) I might as well, given it was fully funded, accommodation and all (albeit at £35 per week all in for accommodation and three cooked meals a day).

I definitely went as
1) My mum wanted me out of the house and thought it would be good for me.
2) I might as well as it was fully funded, accommodation and all although I had to buy and cook my own food.

It was very valuable in that I had a great time, did loads of performing, met my two best friends, and used it as a spring board for drama school.

It was not at all valuable in that my career in IT is entirely based on a series of coincidences and randomness and has nothing to do with my degree.

 

[Psamathe]

Worth noting that benefits based on contributions (eg State Pensions) are not funded from general taxation and are legally ring-fenced and often run a surplus. Surplus can be/is loaned to the Government. NICs do not go into general taxation "pot".

I have heard/read this claim before, is it actually true?

TL;DR
Maybe most relevant bit from below is "there is no question of the Government being in a position to use this facility to extract money from the Fund as an extra source of revenue."

From Wikipedia

The Great Britain NIF had a surplus of over £34 billion as at 2005/06, £38 billion in 2006/07 and the Government Actuary's Department forecast that this surplus would grow to over £114.7 billion by 2012....

The surplus is loaned to the government through the Debt Management Office (which is part of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt), via instruments termed 'Call Notice Deposits'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance_Fund

From Full Fact

How National Insurance Contributions and pensions work
NICs are paid by employees, employers and the self-employed in the UK and pay for contributory benefits, mainly the state pension. So for the most part, today’s workers are paying the pensions of today’s pensioners.

Unlike most taxes in the UK, NICs are paid into a specific pot called the National Insurance Fund, rather than being put with the rest of the tax money collected for the Treasury.

Huge sums of money flow into and out of this fund every year. In 2017/18, about £100 billion went in via NIC contributions and about £100 billion left the fund again to pay for benefits.

But the fund doesn’t always end up in balance. In some years, it needs to pay out a little more in benefits than it gets in contributions—a deficit. In other years, it pays out less than it receives—meaning it’s in surplus.
...
In its response to a freedom of information request earlier this year the government said:

“The latest National Insurance Fund Accounts show that the balance of the NIF increased by [£2 billion] in 2017/18…. This resulted in a closing balance of [£24 billion], which was paid into the [National Insurance Fund] Investment Account and, in practice, used to reduce the national debt”.

The House of Commons Library says in its briefing on National Insurance, “Since 2007 the Fund has been invested in the Government’s ‘Call Notice Deposit Account’, administered by the Debt Management Office… It is worth emphasizing that these funds are being held in this account on loan… there is no question of the Government being in a position to use this facility to extract money from the Fund as an extra source of revenue.”
from https://fullfact.org/economy/money-national-insurance-contributions/

Maybe most relevant bit "there is no question of the Government being in a position to use this facility to extract money from the Fund as an extra source of revenue."

 

[BoldonLad]

TL;DR
Maybe most relevant bit from below is "there is no question of the Government being in a position to use this facility to extract money from the Fund as an extra source of revenue."

From Wikipedia


From Full Fact

Maybe most relevant bit "there is no question of the Government being in a position to use this facility to extract money from the Fund as an extra source of revenue."

Thank you for that. I shall now search the historical figures, presumably, the surplus did not appear in one big bang, but, has built up since start (1947?)

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Sounds like a step in the right direction. Or at least the intention to take one.
Much easier in my day - 4 Building, 4 Agricultural, 4 Mechanical etc. I made my life more complicated by passing the 11 plus.

BBC News - Can Burnham's vision for Manchester's schools work for the rest of England? - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c79gevrvgddo

 

[AuroraSaab]

Too often society considers a trade a "fall back position" when, in fact, a bloody great living can be earned. Too many people in other walks of life look down on tradesmen - when on Cakestop, one regular contributor (now regular) on here called tradesmen "fairly basic people" (which has always stuck in my craw) ...

We've always massively undervalued technical and practical skills in the UK. There was someone on here who mocked a poster with a 'manual' job - which tuned out to be fixing electronics on communications towers hundreds of feet in the air, a job very few people could do. The emphasis on everyone going to uni just means thousands of kids with huge debt and A level type jobs becoming degree level jobs.

If the initiative is properly funded and developed, it's a good idea. Not all kids are academic.

 

[icowden]

Not all kids are academic.

And especially not at 18.

 

[briantrumpet]

Re the apprenticeship thing...

https://skywriter.blue/@benzaranko.bsky.social/3mrpvofmans2o

Ben ZarankoJuly 28, 2026 at 7:10 PM GMT+2
Sensible policy klaxon 🚨 Currently, if a 16 year old chooses to stay in school/college, their family can keep claiming benefits as before (notably child benefit). If they opt for an apprenticeship, the benefits stop. The system discourages apprenticeships. The DWP just announced a fix 🧵 Apprentices will now be eligible for a £4,500 bursary, so that there's no longer a financial disincentive to take up an apprenticeship. Seems eminently sensible, especially for a government looking to promote technical post-16 routes. gov.uk

Government invests in young people with more opportunities close to home
www.gov.uk

This comes on the back of research by the Social Security Advisory Committee: gov.uk

SSAC Occasional Paper 27: The influence of the social security system on educational and vocational decision-making at age 16
www.gov.uk

And research from the University of Bath, which found that "the withdrawal of child benefit can make the apprenticeship route a less appealing option to those from low-income households, even if there are suitable opportunities available to them". bath.ac.uk

https://www.bath.ac.uk/publications...ng-people-in-learning-until-the-age-of-18.pdf
www.bath.ac.uk

A good reminder that careful research can inform sensible policy changes!

 

[Rusty Nails]

i think it depends on the method. eg address the reason behind why so many think they cannot work for health reasons. Address the NHS so those unable to work can receive treatment and then return to work rather than benefits I suspect would get plenty of Labour MP support.

FTFY.

 

[Electric_Andy]

Too often society considers a trade a "fall back position"

Totally agree. A very sad, and wrong, story from my school days circa 1997. We had the usual line of "must aim for Uni else you're life is over". But they introduced a (b-tech or something) course for motor mechanics. There were precisely 4 people on the course, all of whom had mild learning difficulties i.e. were not expected to get GCSE grade A-C in any of the subjects. They were seen as special needs, dummies, who could only do vehicle mechanics because they were too thick to do normal subjects (not my view I might add). We all know of course that everyone is intelligent in their own right, if the yardstick is appropriately positioned, and not just placed in a purely academic footing.

So I'd love to see more vocational subjects that actually embrace the skills needed, and provide a stable and profitable future for kids who don't want to study core subjects at Uni. We need to create not only the infrastructure and opportunity, but shape the attitudes and ethos around vocational subjects

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'll add to this that there was a time when it was fairly easy to do additional academic qualifications if you missed out at school. We had a thriving night school culture where adults could go back and take GCSE and A levels in all sorts of subjects. That's gradually been pared back to Maths and English, with little space for other subjects. It would be nice to see cheap academic evening classes being more of a thing again.

 

[All uphill]

I'll add to this that there was a time when it was fairly easy to do additional academic qualifications if you missed out at school. We had a thriving night school culture where adults could go back and take GCSE and A levels in all sorts of subjects. That's gradually been pared back to Maths and English, with little space for other subjects. It would be nice to see cheap academic evening classes being more of a thing again.

Agreed. So many of us need to mature a bit, and have some experience of the world before we can usefully study.

 

[briantrumpet]

Agreed. So many of us need to mature a bit, and have some experience of the world before we can usefully study.

It was just as well that my knowledge & understanding of classical music was good when I was 18, as my BA at 21 wasn't down to my study skills or well-honed essay-writing abilities, or conscientiousness. Conversely, my OU MA in Music was my atonement (started when I was 40) for my slapdash BA, and I'm disappointed that the OU isn't more of a thing these days, as I think that its achievement and status is extraordinary.