Donald I, emperor of the world.

[CXRAndy]

You might have thought that drawing parallels because it's happening again is why the Holocaust Museum needs to exist... to try to stop anything like this happening again.

Overly emotional from lefties

 

[Pinno718]

Seriously? I don't think it's an unreasonable statement to ask people not to invoke the Holocaust over a situation that whilst distressing is nowhere near equivalent to the extermination of 6 million people in gas chambers. Nor does it make someone a 'professional Jew' to do so.

View attachment 12635

If the current situation is 'Anne Frank', what equivalent Nazi era descriptor would you give to Obama's deportation of 3 million people? Or does the hyperbole not stretch to Obama?

The difference is Obama deported 3m people over an 8 year period whilst following procedure.
This administration is not following due process. The parallels with the initial rounding up of Jewish people and those who were isolated as anti-Reich in the 30's is stark.
Do not forget the number of people who have been deported and sent to Latin American prisons - concentration camps by proxy.
Whilst no, you cannot compare this with the holocaust, this should not be happening in the 'greatest democracy in the world 'with unnumerable contraventions of it's own constitution and wrapped up in all of it, is the blackmail. 'Give us the voter rolls' and we will ease up on the ICE patrols. Literally. This was the call by Noem to Walz.
Without domestic and international outrage at the two executions (even from the right), I think the DHS's actions would have been rolled out in all the other Blue states. Who knows how far this would have (has the potential to) escalate.
It's right out of the authoritarian playbook.

Now, the climb down is significant. If the wannabe dictators fail to procure what's effectively the electoral register (each state is responsible for elections and is has no legal obligation to provide information to central govt.) , then perhaps there is a faint chance of the mid terms not being interfered with. Though, when the dust settles, they will be up to their tricks again.

I think finally, Trump through his own incompetence and the incompetence of Miller, are now realsing the full extent of their unpopularity. The ICE agents are an unruly bunch of poorly trained thugs who have fallen over on their own lack of discipline.
If Trump successfully rigs or cancels the mid terms, then this would be the breaking point and a mandate for something potentially far ,pre insidious and widespread.

We can hope that the pushback continues and that the Dems and Republicans step up and vote against the DHS budget which IIRC is this Friday. 7 Dems approved the budget proposition. I cannot work that out.

The long and the short of it is why are you playing down how utterly abhorrent the actions of ICE, the detention centres, the deportations, executions, the contravention of the constitution (and human rights) and the significance of Miller/Palantir/Thiel and the data gathering?

 

[CXRAndy]

They are following due process. The only difference is, there is an organised rebellion of paid agitators in just a few states.

 

[Pblakeney]

Seriously? I don't think it's an unreasonable statement to ask people not to invoke the Holocaust over a situation that whilst distressing is nowhere near equivalent to the extermination of 6 million people in gas chambers. Nor does it make someone a 'professional Jew' to do so.

View attachment 12635

If the current situation is 'Anne Frank', what equivalent Nazi era descriptor would you give to Obama's deportation of 3 million people? Or does the hyperbole not stretch to Obama?

The Holocaust did not start with the extermination of 6 million Jews, that is how it ended. The US is just at the beginning of the comparison. Who knows where it would end up if unchecked? Thankfully, it would appear that red lines have been hit and it is getting checked.

 

[C R]

Seriously? I don't think it's an unreasonable statement to ask people not to invoke the Holocaust over a situation that whilst distressing is nowhere near equivalent to the extermination of 6 million people in gas chambers. Nor does it make someone a 'professional Jew' to do so.

View attachment 12635

If the current situation is 'Anne Frank', what equivalent Nazi era descriptor would you give to Obama's deportation of 3 million people? Or does the hyperbole not stretch to Obama?

I've recommended this book to you before. You should read it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_(novel)

 

[briantrumpet]

That's quite the graphic. As you're all clever, I assume I don't have to spell out the implication.

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

Thankfully, it would appear that red lines have been hit and it is getting checked.

It is going to be interesting to see how it plays out now. The "interesting" thing about Trump is that unlike a lot of other quasi authoritarians, he actually has no conviction or backbone (I suspect as a result of the number his father did on him). He is actually incredibly weak and when confronted, like most bullies he starts to back down. We could well have a situation now where the ICE backlash is starting to take effect and there are some signs Trump is squirming, which is good and will hopefully continue. The other problem he now has is that when you position yourself as a leader in his mould, your followers expect the constant show of strength, there are only so many times when they will accept his constant excuses for the climb downs, Greenland and (Potentially) ICE being the latest examples.

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

That's quite the graphic. As you're all clever, I assume I don't have to spell out the implication.

View attachment 12637

Ah, but as an educated liberal you/we are not allowed to point this out Brian as that makes us patronising arses who do not understand "real" people. This is one of the trends that the right wing media and politicians have really pushed with the increase in populism over the last few years, the issues faced by more marginalized people are all the fault of the left and they should not be listened to as they are pompous liars (I know this is not new and has been a central point of populism). I do think in the age of social media, it has caught fire though, all of a sudden anyone can be an "expert" on a topic without the need for an actual education, to the point as some faded politician may have said a while back, "the people of this country have had enough of experts".

 

[briantrumpet]

I've recommended this book to you before. You should read it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_(novel)

The point is more that Walz wasn't claiming that the situation in the US is identical to the Holocaust, but that the parallels can't be ignored (children hiding at home for fear of being abducted to goodness knows where). Surely the point of the Holocaust Museum should be exactly so people can see parallels between historic and current events so they can see how the Holocaust started, and in order to stop contemporary events following the path of the Holocaust.

My assumption in this case is that the museum has been leant on because the Trump regime doesn't want people to make those parallels, because they are too close to the truth.

 

[briantrumpet]

Ah, but as an educated liberal you/we are not allowed to point this out Brian as that makes us patronising arses who do not understand "real" people. This is one of the trends that the right wing media and politicians have really pushed with the increase in populism over the last few years, the issues faced by more marginalized people are all the fault of the left and they should not be listened to as they are pompous liars (I know this is not new and has been a central point of populism). I do think in the age of social media, it has caught fire though, all of a sudden anyone can be an "expert" on a topic without the need for an actual education, to the point as some faded politician may have said a while back, "the people of this country have had enough of experts".

The irony is, of course, that the Trump regime has gutted the Department of Education, so the poor & uneducated will remain that way, while the richer educated libs support redressing the balance through public education.

 

[Pross]

I wonder if there'll come a point where Trump decides to throw the ICE agents under the bus (going beyond their powers, not sanctioned etc.) and, if that does happen, what the reaction will be.

 

[AndyRM]

The obsession with Obama is positively Trumpian. Clinton is a much easier target to whack with the "But Democrats did it too" stick...

 

[briantrumpet]

This could equally go in the good news thread, or under the emotions one, as it cheers me up.

 

[C R]

The point is more that Walz wasn't claiming that the situation in the US is identical to the Holocaust, but that the parallels can't be ignored (children hiding at home for fear of being abducted to goodness knows where). Surely the point of the Holocaust Museum should be exactly so people can see parallels between historic and current events so they can see how the Holocaust started, and in order to stop contemporary events following the path of the Holocaust.

My assumption in this case is that the museum has been leant on because the Trump regime doesn't want people to make those parallels, because they are too close to the truth.

The book story starts in 1925 and shows the slow boil of othering. Exactly what Waltz is talking about.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The long and the short of it is why are you playing down how utterly abhorrent the actions of ICE, the detention centres, the deportations, executions, the contravention of the constitution (and human rights) and the significance of Miller/Palantir/Thiel and the data gathering?

I don't underestimate their significance. They are not anything near approaching the Final Solution though and constantly drawing an equivalence is hyperbolic.

I've recommended this book to you before. You should read it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_(novel)

I taught about the Holocaust on and off for years, thanks. Perhaps you should read some non fiction about it to understand why your constant comparisons are a bit offensive, even to me who isn't a 'professional Jew' as you call them.

The point is more that Walz wasn't claiming that the situation in the US is identical to the Holocaust,

... well don't bring Anne Frank into it then.

Surely the point of the Holocaust Museum should be exactly so people can see parallels between historic and current events so they can see how the Holocaust started, and in order to stop contemporary events following the path of the Holocaust.

It's about the Holocaust. Surely they allowed to prioritise remembering their 6 million dead. Their reason for existing doesn't have to be to serve other people's wider interest.

Should the main purpose of a museum about slavery in the US be to draw attention to slavery elsewhere so it doesn't happen again? Of course not.