Gender again. Sorry!

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icowden

Squire
Firstly, I'm surprised that you seem happy to let anybody use disabled facilities simply because you think no member of staff should be allowed to ask politely if they're entitled to. Disabled people fought long and hard for those facilities and you seem happy to give them away.
You are missing the point. It's impossible to tell whether someone has a disability by looking at them. Disabled facilities are used on an honesty basis. Policing them would be utterly pointless. The same is true for men's and women's toilets. When my girls were toddlers I used ladies toilets a lot - because that was where the baby change was. I think I was only challenged once, and replied - "she's female and needs to use the facilities. She can't do them by herself yet!".

Secondly, you can surely see that arguing about how to stop able bodied prople from using an enclosed single use disabled toilet is a million miles from the situations which this court ruling is about. You know it isn't about toilets.
And yet, here we are again talking about toilets.

The point of the ruling is to establish what the law is, and the ruling has the effect that women are entitled to have spaces in which biological men are not permitted. Notwithstanding that, as @monkers has pointed out previously, most of those places where "women don't want men" are not places that can be policed. They are, like disabled toilets, managed on an honesty basis. We tend to treat people based on the best way to give them treatment.
 
It's you guys that keep bringing it back to toilets, which is the easiest issue to resolve.

Notwithstanding that, as @monkers has pointed out previously, most of those places where "women don't want men" are not places that can be policed. They are, like disabled toilets, managed on an honesty basis. We tend to treat people based on the best way to give them treatment.

That simply isn't true. You can't practically police who you give a bed to in a shared room at a women's refuge? You can't police who your counsellor is when you ask for a female one after being raped? You can't police which sex the police officer who is going to perform an intimate search on a woman is? You can't police who attends a lesbian group in order to exclude men? It's so difficult to work out whether someone is a man or not that we have to take it on trust? This is nonsense.

It's not about toilets. This is the stuff it's about.
I doubt you think it's too impractical to discern someone's entitlement to be there when it comes to things like whether your GP is qualified or your kids teachers aren't sex offenders. Do you manage that on an honesty basis?
 
You can ask them, just like you'd ask someone who looked too old to play in an under 15 football game how old they were. Someone who was entitled to be there would be able to explain. Knowing that they might be asked or removed if they weren't eligible would deter those who weren't and before long we'd likely be back to the convention where you don't pretend to be something you're not in order to be somewhere you aren't entitled to be.

You aren't allowed to ask at the recruitment stage for jobs, because that might lead employers to discriminate. You can certainly ask for proof of disability where being disabled brings a benefit eg preferential parking at work.

Firstly, I'm surprised that you seem happy to let anybody use disabled facilities simply because you think no member of staff should be allowed to ask politely if they're entitled to. Disabled people fought long and hard for those facilities and you seem happy to give them away.

Secondly, you can surely see that arguing about how to stop able bodied prople from using an enclosed single use disabled toilet is a million miles from the situations which this court ruling is about. You know it isn't about toilets.
You're doing what you've done all along, diverting the question asked.

How are you going to police the disability issue, as described? Both the equalities act and its predecessor, the DDA, makes it illegal to ask/demand proof of disability in everyday life. Work is a seperate issue entirely, reasonable adjustment(s) can only be made if the disability is known about.

When every other argument fails, you fall back on another group you seem to dislike. This time the disabled, and how they have seperate facilities provided by some, not all places they may use as they try to live an everyday life.
It's you that keeps on bringing toilets into this, then saying it's not about them. If it's not about them, why keep on bringing either into it?
 

monkers

Squire
There is no criminal law in the UK about who gets to use which publicly accessible toilet in the UK. Even after the Supreme Court ruling a cis man can walk into the women's publicly accessible toilet and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. The police are powerless as no criminal act is committed unless the man commits an actual offence while in there.

The Equality Act relies on civil law. There is no available legal method to police it. Acts committed by others attempting to police become breaches of law ranging from invasion of privacy to harassment.

All of which makes Falkner an idiot for saying that the Commission are going to enforce it. They can't.
 
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The women who did the work, completed the education and training, and attained the required credentials to do the job.
Privilege, by association to fame, power and wealth are eliminating recognition of spectacularly accomplished women in many fields who should have the spotlights.
Valentina Tereshkova: The First Woman in Space
Sally Ride: Breaking Barriers and Inspiring Generations
Mae Jemison: A Trailblazer in Science and Space, First Black Woman in Space
Peggy Whitson: Setting Records in Space and Inspiring Endurance in Female Astronauts
 
It's you guys that keep bringing it back to toilets, which is the easiest issue to resolve.
No, it was yourself that introduced the toilets, later using the disabled to try to prove your points. And yourself who said you'd be willing to stand outside them and "police" who could use them.
That simply isn't true. You can't practically police who you give a bed to in a shared room at a women's refuge? You can't police who your counsellor is when you ask for a female one after being raped? You can't police which sex the police officer who is going to perform an intimate search on a woman is? You can't police who attends a lesbian group in order to exclude men? It's so difficult to work out whether someone is a man or not that we have to take it on trust? This is nonsense.
There's set procedures in place for treatment in police custody. But you're generally going to be seen by a female nurse**, regardless of how you present yourself.
There's only yourself that keeps repeating that piece. As you try and present your view, as though it the only one that anyone should care about.
It's not about toilets. This is the stuff it's about.
I doubt you think it's too impractical to discern someone's entitlement to be there when it comes to things like whether your GP is qualified or your kids teachers aren't sex offenders. Do you manage that on an honesty basis?
If it isn't, why do you keep on returning to the subject of their use?

It's never been about the practicalities, but the legalities of demanding proof to the level of satisfaction that you seek that's a bigger issue.
You don't like one particular group of people, so you want them nowhere near you. Hiding it, always, behind another matter that affects everyone.

I've been seen, and examined by female doctors. On what some might consider to be a male only examination. Never once was the thought given to demanding that the doctors doing the examinations, and explanations, be male. I did ask once if she was okay in doing the examination, but put treatment received ahead of anything else.
Taken, as you've put it on a "honesty basis" that they were qualified.
The same as the nurses, be they male or female. Their job is hard enough, without someone demanding special treatment.

My last named GP was male, but that 13 years ago now. It was easier talk to him, and not many liked him. Ex forces and probably heard every excuse already. I believe that the named doctor I'm listed with at present is female, as was the one she replaced. I've never asked either to prove they're qualified, or that they were actually born female. Wonder what the result of me asking them that, and for proof, would be?

I've been treated on a mixed surgical ward, where the ones asking what I'd had done, were the women on the ward. Looking at what was in the sealed specimen bottle on the small cupboard at the side of the bed.

And, if I felt I couldn't trust the doctor/specialist in charge of treating me, I have simply got them denied access to my medical records. For any reason.
Currently stands at six. Five male, one female*. But then I've only been seen by two female neurologists over the years, so five to one isn't as skewed as it firsts appears. None of these six are currently on the UK medical register.

*I'd to check before posting that figure.
**Female nurse used because women nurse/nurse who will be a woman degrades the work they do. And sounds stupid.
 

CXRAndy

Veteran
There are no cis men or cis women. Just man and woman.

The Supreme court has agreed TiMs are not women

They are men dressing up, in extreme cases harming themselves with drugs and surgery
 

CXRAndy

Veteran
You are missing the point. It's impossible to tell whether someone has a disability by looking at them. Disabled facilities are used on an honesty basis. Policing them would be utterly pointless. The same is true for men's and women's toilets. When my girls were toddlers I used ladies toilets a lot - because that was where the baby change was. I think I was only challenged once, and replied - "she's female and needs to use the facilities. She can't do them by herself yet!".


And yet, here we are again talking about toilets.

The point of the ruling is to establish what the law is, and the ruling has the effect that women are entitled to have spaces in which biological men are not permitted. Notwithstanding that, as @monkers has pointed out previously, most of those places where "women don't want men" are not places that can be policed. They are, like disabled toilets, managed on an honesty basis. We tend to treat people based on the best way to give them treatment.

I expect society will police itself, through dignity and respect for their sex.

This subject has been pushed to the limit in the public arena and now the courts.

Women are fully protected to demand any male to leave any area which is males are barred. No longer can men use the argument they are women too.
Their legitimacy to say they are women is sunk with the Supreme courts decision.

Women will be emboldened to defend their spaces, and in the coming weeks and months we will see men being stopped from trying to access areas
 

monkers

Squire
Im sorry i missed most of this thread - being too busy TERFing in other places. Interesting to note that here, like everywhere else, it's the 'Just be kind' brigade who resort to vile name calling.

I'm over the moon at the supreme court ruling and absolutely cannot wait to see what impact it'll have over the coming months and years in women's prisons, sports, refuges and private spaces. I hope it inspires womens rights activists abroad too. Ireland, Canada and Australia in particular are all captured by the LGBQWERTY genital mutilation cult.

Yes, it was not long after I joined the other place, and despite having said early on there that I was a gay woman, that you decided that I MUST be trans and must be attacked because I spoke trans affirmatively on that site.

This is how your band of buddies spent the day yesterday TERFING in other places - doing exactly to other cis women as you did to me.

I well remember from then what a piece of shoot you are, and now see you haven't changed.

https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2025/04/17/what-is-a-woman/
 

Psamathe

Well-Known Member
But they don't. It's another illustration of what @monkers pointed out which is that it's judged on whether you "Look" a certain way.
It's very common for people with invisible disabilities to be accused of not being disabled, just as butch lesbians can often be challenged as to whether they are women.
"invisible disabilities" are particularly difficult way beyond use of toilets (speaking from personal experience). Many difficulties many won't appreciate or even realise they are happening.

Ian
 

CXRAndy

Veteran
It's funny to see the trans supporters now saying, we were always on the side of women's rights.

Yeah right.

But let's not be bitter, welcome our new enlightened followers to TERF island.

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Looking forward to the re introduction of proper sex based language too 👍
 

Psamathe

Well-Known Member
Reminding you at this stage that under the DDA and Equalities Act, that demanding proof isn't allowed. You've to take the person at their word
Also remembering there in no official disabled registration scheme in the UK so how do you "prove it" to somebody who has decided to diagnose you are not disabled based on <10 secs observation.

nb there are private companies that will sell you a pseudo card that means little more than you are paying them money on an ongoing basis; nothing to do with any registration scheme.
You can ask them, ...

Someone who was entitled to be there would be able to explain.
I would find that highly offensive, then having to describe the nature and impact and limitations of my disability. Maybe you are showing how you fail to appreciate challenges faced by others. Your comment highlights the challenges faced by so many disabled people. You think standing in a public space explaining the nature of your disability is something acceptable? I am truly flabbergast.

Ian
 

Stevo 666

Regular
Or they could use the facilities appropriate to their sex until those unisex third spaces are available. So many men on here are suggesting they themselves are compassionate and kind and understanding of the vulnerabilities of men who say they are women that I can't understand why this isn't the ideal intermediate solution. Welcome your non conforming brethren into your spaces, lads.

That's another solution. Wouldn't bother me.
 
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