League Tables

[spen666]

Its being reported that Wes Streeting wants to introduce league tables of hospitals and to stop managers at failing hNHS Trusts moving to another NHS Trust
No issue with that, but would be interesting to see same principles applied to MPs

MPs judged to be failing can't stand in a different constituency
Ministers who fail can't get another cabinet/ shadow cabinet post etc

Can you imagine the poutcry from MPs at being judged the way they want to judge others

 

[monkers]

Its being reported that Wes Streeting wants to introduce league tables of hospitals and to stop managers at failing hNHS Trusts moving to another NHS Trust
No issue with that, but would be interesting to see same principles applied to MPs

MPs judged to be failing can't stand in a different constituency
Ministers who fail can't get another cabinet/ shadow cabinet post etc

Can you imagine the poutcry from MPs at being judged the way they want to judge others

It's a terrible idea. Making people constantly fear for their jobs makes them under perform. Ultimately they'll find something else to do instead. Will private hospitals be exempt?

 

[Ian H]

Its being reported that Wes Streeting wants to introduce league tables of hospitals and to stop managers at failing hNHS Trusts moving to another NHS Trust
No issue with that, but would be interesting to see same principles applied to MPs

MPs judged to be failing can't stand in a different constituency
Ministers who fail can't get another cabinet/ shadow cabinet post etc

Can you imagine the poutcry from MPs at being judged the way they want to judge others

One trick of authoritarian governments is to invent spurious ways of barring opposition party members from standing for election.

 

[Psamathe]

Over the last few years I've been unlucky and had a couple of issues requiring referral to hospital consultants (fortunately all false alarms). I've never had any of this supposed "choice". I see GP (reality is I see Nurse Practitioner), they say referal, I wait until I get a letter with appointment and I go to the hospital. How will people getting that letter feel if they lookup the hospital and fine it's scored 1 out of 10. Even though their assigned consultant might be excellent, the only score they get to see is the hospital whichg will make them even more scared on top of the worry about their (possible) condition.

I accept they're are aspects of the NHS that do require some reform but some of Labour's plans are just daft. Might sound OK but think about them and they serve no purpose and just cost money and cause disruption.

eg Labour's plans for "neighbourhood health centres" where "patients will have access to doctors, district nurses, care workers, physiotherapists, health visitors, mental health professionals etc.". Do people think their GP appointment will be "You need to see a physiotherapist" and they'll walk out of GP and straight into a waiting physiotherapist. No, it will be another appointment on another day so having everybody in the same building serves no purpose as all it affects is where you travel to for the appointment. But it will require new buildings, new consultation rooms, etc.

Ian

 

[AndyRM]

I don't know whether poutcry was an intentional typo or not, but it's my new favourite word.

 

[spen666]

Over the last few years I've been unlucky and had a couple of issues requiring referral to hospital consultants (fortunately all false alarms). I've never had any of this supposed "choice". I see GP (reality is I see Nurse Practitioner), they say referal, I wait until I get a letter with appointment and I go to the hospital.

That's interesting as the times I have needed to see a consultant I was given a choice of at least 3 different consultants to see at different hospitals/ clinics

I had assumed that was the norm now, but obviously I am lucky with the area I am in or the GP practice I am at

How will people getting that letter feel if they lookup the hospital and fine it's scored 1 out of 10. Even though their assigned consultant might be excellent, the only score they get to see is the hospital whichg will make them even more scared on top of the worry about their (possible) condition.

I accept they're are aspects of the NHS that do require some reform but some of Labour's plans are just daft. Might sound OK but think about them and they serve no purpose and just cost money and cause disruption.
eg Labour's plans for "neighbourhood health centres" where "patients will have access to doctors, district nurses, care workers, physiotherapists, health visitors, mental health professionals etc.". Do people think their GP appointment will be "You need to see a physiotherapist" and they'll walk out of GP and straight into a waiting physiotherapist. No, it will be another appointment on another day so having everybody in the same building serves no purpose as all it affects is where you travel to for the appointment. But it will require new buildings, new consultation rooms, etc.

Ian

 

[BoldonLad]

Over the last few years I've been unlucky and had a couple of issues requiring referral to hospital consultants (fortunately all false alarms). I've never had any of this supposed "choice". I see GP (reality is I see Nurse Practitioner), they say referal, I wait until I get a letter with appointment and I go to the hospital. How will people getting that letter feel if they lookup the hospital and fine it's scored 1 out of 10. Even though their assigned consultant might be excellent, the only score they get to see is the hospital whichg will make them even more scared on top of the worry about their (possible) condition.

I accept they're are aspects of the NHS that do require some reform but some of Labour's plans are just daft. Might sound OK but think about them and they serve no purpose and just cost money and cause disruption.

eg Labour's plans for "neighbourhood health centres" where "patients will have access to doctors, district nurses, care workers, physiotherapists, health visitors, mental health professionals etc.". Do people think their GP appointment will be "You need to see a physiotherapist" and they'll walk out of GP and straight into a waiting physiotherapist. No, it will be another appointment on another day so having everybody in the same building serves no purpose as all it affects is where you travel to for the appointment. But it will require new buildings, new consultation rooms, etc.

Ian

I would agree on th referrals, my wife has unfortunately had a few over the past couple of years, never given a choice or option to choose.

In the area we live, there are several centres which are effectively "neighbourhood health centres" as described, although, they are not or have not been called that todate. They have been in place for several years, introduced during the time of the previous "experts" o0n how to deliver healthcare.

 

[BoldonLad]

Have we not already been down this route (or very similar) in the Blair years.

Isn't this just an NHS version of OFSTED?,

Doesn't this already. exist?, it is, or was, called the Care Quality Commission https://www.cqc.org.uk

 

[C R]

Have we not already been down this route (or very similar) in the Blair years.

Isn't this just an NHS version of OFSTED?,

Doesn't this already. exist?, it is, or was, called the Care Quality Commission https://www.cqc.org.uk

Indeed, recycled new labour shïte. Put the effort in fixing the problems, shaming league tables did nothing for schools, can't see how it would do anything for hospitals.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Yes, there's been various performance records on NHS trusts published for a while. You can check waiting times and death rates.

There are other rankings based on a mix of official data plus surveys, eg.

https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024/united-kingdom

You can look up individual GP practices too, and care homes. I'm not sure what Streeting's plan would add to what's already there.
Surely the new employer should be doing due diligence to ensure poor performing leaders aren't appointed?

I know it's been an issue in social work, where heads of service who oversaw horrendous failings got jobs elsewhere, but part of that is due to the nature of investigations taking sometimes years.

 

[stowie]

Its being reported that Wes Streeting wants to introduce league tables of hospitals and to stop managers at failing hNHS Trusts moving to another NHS Trust
No issue with that, but would be interesting to see same principles applied to MPs

MPs judged to be failing can't stand in a different constituency
Ministers who fail can't get another cabinet/ shadow cabinet post etc

Can you imagine the poutcry from MPs at being judged the way they want to judge others

There is the tyranny of metrics. Being employed in large multinationals most of my life, it is a problem I have seen everywhere.

Set metrics and they become targets. Blair set a metric of everyone being able to see a GP within 2 days which sounds good. Until the metric didn't account for people giving up or not given appointments (as bookings were only released in 2 day blocks) so GPs could hit the target. Or schools targeted on pupils achieving A-C grades in GCSE and schools then concentrating on pupils near the middle C-D grades and ignoring those more capable or struggling below D.

So I am sceptical of metrics, especially run by politicians where the perception for the public is a consideration.

On MPs, their failure should be measured at the Ballot box. Of course, this is very skewed with good MPs being ousted due to a party being unpopular. But it quite a pure way of measuring competence. The concern would always be who judges the MP performance. Democracy says it should only be the electorate. Putting something else in place alongside dilutes that.

Failing managers moving to other (or even better positions) indicates a sort of "old-boy network" in operation, or that the skill sets required are so rare that a failing manager is better than the alternative of no manager. This is not restricted to the NHS or public services. I could put a long list together of high flyers I have met whose career consists of 2 years in a position before moving onto better things and their outcomes never being judged. Cunning and political manoeuvring can definitely overcome incompetence.

 

[Psamathe]

Have we not already been down this route (or very similar) in the Blair years.

It was Milburn who tried to introduce it before and failed. Now Milburn is appointed to Dept of Health and short time later his idea from years ago is now being pushed!

Labour, having promised and required reform now seem all over the place trying to find something they can reform. In my view these league tables can do more harm than good in that they can only be compiled based on metrics and thus these metrics are in effect targets which means that NHS managers will once again become target driven their priority being to achieve well based on Central Government targets rather than on local patient needs.

My impression is Labour's thought process: "Something needs to be done. This is something so let's do it". Everything I've heard from them so far will have minimal to negative impact of the crisis the NHS and their patients is currently facing. I'm very surprised that Labour hadn't spent at least some time in their opposition years preparing what they'd do (sort of thing Shadow Ministers should really be understanding ready for the day). But they seem lost for ideas (or effective ideas).

Ian

 

[C R]

It was Milburn who tried to introduce it before and failed. Now Milburn is appointed to Dept of Health and short time later his idea from years ago is now being pushed!

Labour, having promised and required reform now seem all over the place trying to find something they can reform. In my view these league tables can do more harm than good in that they can only be compiled based on metrics and thus these metrics are in effect targets which means that NHS managers will once again become target driven their priority being to achieve well based on Central Government targets rather than on local patient needs.

My impression is Labour's thought process: "Something needs to be done. This is something so let's do it". Everything I've heard from them so far will have minimal to negative impact of the crisis the NHS and their patients is currently facing. I'm very surprised that Labour hadn't spent at least some time in their opposition years preparing what they'd do (sort of thing Shadow Ministers should really be understanding ready for the day). But they seem lost for ideas (or effective ideas).

Ian

Considering who donated to Streeting in the run up to the general election, I would posit that failing to fix the NHS was the plan all along.

 

[fozy tornip]

Considering who donated to Streeting in the run up to the general election, I would posit that failing to fix the NHS was the plan all along.

Don't be coy: who bought themselves a health secretary?

 

[C R]

Don't be coy: who bought themselves a health secretary?

The list of donors included French and US health insurance companies. Someone posted a link to it in the Starmer thread, I think.