Then 17 Year Old Male Gets Community Service for Raping a then 13 Year Old Girl

[spen666]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65173054


A story in sections of the media today ( Other links are available)

Lots of things in this case.
1. It appears Courts sentencing powers were limited by Scottish law that says effectively offenders under 25 are to be treated more leniently than those older. There will be those who argue this is correct as a younger adult is less mature and has less reasoning skills than someone older. However, what happens here is that the victim of the crime sees an offender effectively get a much lighter punishment. The rights of the victim and their feelings are in this instance perhapsdeemed to be worth not as much as the rights of the offender.

There will always be a tension between the two, but this seems out of line with the various attempts to encourage reporting and prosecuting of sex offences and for child protection.

2. Giving reduced sentences to under 25s is not going to act as a deterrent to them. If there is little fear of getting a custodial sentence then what is to stop offending

3. Not imprisoning people who may be considered dangerous to others is a risk to the rest of society.

4. When googling for the reporting of this story online, it is interesting that it is reported in Daily Mail, The Sun, The Mirror , The BBC , LBC etc, but not in The Guardian. No idea why the Guardian chooses not to report the story ( Searches done by defendant's name- so it may be reported elsewhere not using his name)

5. The Scottish Legislation does not just apply to rape or sex offences, but to all offences being sentenced

6. Interesting the media reports in main talk about a 21 year old man raping a 13 year old girl. At time of offences he was 17 and the girl now is 17. The ages are spun to make story seem more shocking. 17 year old raping a 13 year old is bad, but not as bad as 21 v 13 or saying he is 21 and she is now 17 is not the same shock sensational headline

 

[Beebo]

It’s difficult to comment on without the full facts.
I’m sure we can all recall older boys having relationships with younger girls from our school days.
It would be unworkable if every 17 year old who has had sex with a 15 year old was prosecuted. But 13 does seem very young.
If the report of force are correct then this does seem lenient.

 

[Bromptonaut]

As @Beebo says we don't have all the facts, including the circumstances of the offence and the man's current situation which were available to the sentencing Judge.

IIRC Scotland has a much more humane system for dealing with youth offenders than in England and Wales, and bearing in mind he was 17 at the time he may have been treated as a minor.

The BBC report seems pretty clear that custody was considered but rejected as it would not be effective. In some ways that, in itself is quite telling.

 

[AuroraSaab]

BBC reports says it took 4 years for the case to come to court, so sounds like the victim reported it at the time. Not much detail but it does look like force and coercion was used - 'Court papers stated Hogg, of Hamilton, South Lanarkshire, threatened the girl, seized her by the wrists and forced her to carry out a sex act before raping her'.

This sentence does nothing to encourage victims of rape to report their abuse, if anything it will deter people from coming forward. When this is the result why would you put yourself through the process?

 

[Deleted member 49]

It’s difficult to comment on without the full facts.
I’m sure we can all recall older boys having relationships with younger girls from our school days.
It would be unworkable if every 17 year old who has had sex with a 15 year old was prosecuted. But 13 does seem very young.
If the report of force are correct then this does seem lenient.

He raped a child on various occasions.What sort of message does this send out ?

 

[Mr Celine]

No idea why the Guardian chooses not to report the story

Because it's in Scotland obvs.

 

[Beebo]

He raped a child on various occasions.What sort of message does this send out ?

I agree that it’s a terrible message.

 

[matticus]

6. Interesting the media reports in main talk about a 21 year old man raping a 13 year old girl. At time of offences he was 17 and the girl now is 17. The ages are spun to make story seem more shocking. 17 year old raping a 13 year old is bad, but not as bad as 21 v 13 or saying he is 21 and she is now 17 is not the same shock sensational headline

I think that is despicable reporting. All too common of course.

(Most of the UK press are sewage impurities, aren't they?)

 

[Bromptonaut]

So few facts!!

BBC report though has been augmented by some narrative from a specialist in Scottish Home Affairs who gives some context around the legislative and policy stuff in Scotland. The offences took place in 2018 so between 4 and 5 years ago. Even in post pandemic England that would be a long time for a promptly reported rape case to come to trial.

I cannot even find press reports of his trial, where it seems he pleaded not guilty but was convicted by a Jury.

Do any of our Scots residents know more?

 

[spen666]

So few facts!!

BBC report though has been augmented by some narrative from a specialist in Scottish Home Affairs who gives some context around the legislative and policy stuff in Scotland. The offences took place in 2018 so between 4 and 5 years ago. Even in post pandemic England that would be a long time for a promptly reported rape case to come to trial.

I cannot even find press reports of his trial, where it seems he pleaded not guilty but was convicted by a Jury.

Do any of our Scots residents know more?

Sad to say, but there may have been little reporting of trial as a 17 year old raping another child ( even one as young as 13) is sadly not uncommon.


Another issue from this case is why it has taken so long between offence and sentencing. I do not know if delays were due to:
1. Delays in court listing
2. Delay in reporting of offence to police
3. Medial reasons eg mental health issues of defendant or victim
4. Other reason.
Delay is unwelcome

 

[Mr Celine]

So few facts!!

BBC report though has been augmented by some narrative from a specialist in Scottish Home Affairs who gives some context around the legislative and policy stuff in Scotland. The offences took place in 2018 so between 4 and 5 years ago. Even in post pandemic England that would be a long time for a promptly reported rape case to come to trial.

I cannot even find press reports of his trial, where it seems he pleaded not guilty but was convicted by a Jury.

Do any of our Scots residents know more?

There was a brief report on this story on last night's Reporting Scotland (BBC) but surprisingly nothing in any of today's or yesterday's Scottish papers that I can access with a pressreader account. (Scotsman, Herald, P+J, Edinburgh Evening News etc)
There may have been reporting restrictions.

 

[Deleted member 121]

Its all bullshit. Even the judge doesn't have a clue.

"The judge pointed out that it had taken four years for the case to come to court.
He said he had sentenced Hogg as if he had still been a teenager, when he would have been considered "less culpable, less blameworthy".

The victim was a teenager. But there seems to be a legal denial really, that a 17 year old (although irrelevant can be legally responsible enough to have a full UK driving licence) can have both physical and mental command of a 13 year old. "Just teenagers being teenagers and it went a bit far" seems to be direction of travel and a slap on the wrist...

He'd have still been a teenager at 18. Would that have likely have had a significant difference to the sentencing? What about 19? Poor statement really. I hope they appeal for a far tougher sentence and to question the effectiveness of the judge.

I really don't think the courts will have seen the last of Sean Hogg...

 

[glasgowcyclist]

It appears Courts sentencing powers were limited by Scottish law

I fear that is a mischaracterisation of the position. Sentencing guidelines, brought in last year, were applied by the judge in this case. They do not restrict the sentence but should be used to inform the decision.

“The full range of sentencing options remains open to the court.​

However, the nature and duration of a sentence imposed on a young person should be different from that which might be imposed on an older person being sentenced for the same, or a similar, offence.“​

The guidelines also state that,

“The court’s consideration of the level of harm, which includes the impact on any victim or victims, is not affected by the provisions of this guideline.”​

For reasons that are not fully disclosed anywhere I’ve looked, the sentencing judge has shown surprising leniency and it is now for the COPFS to consider an appeal against the sentence.

(I see that the defence is already planning an appeal against the conviction.)

 

[mudsticks]

It’s difficult to comment on without the full facts.
I’m sure we can all recall older boys having relationships with younger girls from our school days.
It would be unworkable if every 17 year old who has had sex with a 15 year old was prosecuted. But 13 does seem very young.
If the report of force are correct then this does seem lenient.

This kind of thing is part of the problem.

Can we just stop normalising older men predating on girls or young women, as if its just normal acceptable behaviour.
Its exploiting a power imbalance, this wasn't a 'relationship' it was an older teen boy abusing a young teen girl.

You can't give consent under the age of consent, therefore any sexual activity is non consensual -
- and what do we call non consensual activity, class??

Its a bit like the catcalling thing - "Girls used to love it in my day"- as if it excuses it .

Well some might have, many pretended to - otherwise they'd have got called nasty names - and many others hated it but didn't feel they could react they just cringed inside, and scuttled off, or didn't go out or to certain places.

If in doubt - and there will always be doubt unless you know the person very well - then leave it very much out.

BBC reports says it took 4 years for the case to come to court, so sounds like the victim reported it at the time. Not much detail but it does look like force and coercion was used - 'Court papers stated Hogg, of Hamilton, South Lanarkshire, threatened the girl, seized her by the wrists and forced her to carry out a sex act before raping her'.

This sentence does nothing to encourage victims of rape to report their abuse, if anything it will deter people from coming forward. When this is the result why would you put yourself through the process?

Exactly and this is one reason why the conviction rate is so low.

Far better education and conversations are needed around consent, and respect in general.

There's new generations growing up with all kinds of violent porn available at the press of a button and all kinds of horrible 'influencers' poisoning young minds.

But the effort to counteract all that is desultory to say the least

 

[AuroraSaab]

It also struck me that the guidelines suggesting that under 25's be treated more leniently is a bit odd. They do take age into account in sentencing in England and Wales, and we do have Young Offenders prisons for under 21's, but there's quite a difference between a 17 year old and a 25 year old. Even between a 21 year old and a 25 year old really.

Lots of youth crime involves crimes committed against people of similar age or younger, so this ruling could be seen as giving very little deterrent not just for sexual assault but for other youth crime like muggings, making those most likely to be victims even more at risk.