What Do We Think So Far?

[fozy tornip]

I think we should have a referendum about re-joining CC.
Let's face it, it's pretty dull, and with one or two notable exceptions we've lost the people from whom it was possible occasionally to learn something interesting. Shep's favourite cuss words? How many times the word hypocrite can be levered into a single post? Who wants to know, frankly?
And half the fun was the meta-narrative; seeing how close you could sail to the Byzantine moderation red lines without triggering a reaction. It's become a fruit machine that costs nothing to play and never pays out.

 

[fozy tornip]

Though given the current ubiquity of Jodie Comer I expect her to show up any time.

 

[Xipe Totec]

Why should people need to 'defend' their voting choices to some stranger on a cycling forum?

I wouldn't expect you to 'defend ' your decision as it would make me appear superior in some way and think I know better.

What's the point of telling people your voting choices if you don't want to be asked about them? Clearly you think you 'know better' or you wouldn't have voted the way you did - which is completely fine, but the point of any discussion is to talk about things, understand opposing views and possibly to change others' minds - which works both ways.

To turn it around, if you don't care about other people's reasons & thinking, why post things you know will be challenged in the first place? I'm pretty sure anyone here whose views you disagree with would be perfectly happy to 'defend' those views. 'Explain' would be a better word. It doesn't have to be a slagging/sneering match.

 

[BoldonLad]

I think we should have a referendum about re-joining CC.
Let's face it, it's pretty dull, and with one or two notable exceptions we've lost the people from whom it was possible occasionally to learn something interesting. Shep's favourite cuss words? How many times the word hypocrite can be levered into a single post? Who wants to know, frankly?
And half the fun was the meta-narrative; seeing how close you could sail to the Byzantine moderation red lines without triggering a reaction. It's become a fruit machine that costs nothing to play and never pays out.

An excellent idea. We can then argue (sorry, discuss and debate) relentlessly about who "won", and any advantages of doing so!

 

[BoldonLad]

You might be surprised to know I'd actually like to hear some right-wing Tory/Brexit voters actually talk about their politics & their decision, explain in clarity and detail why they voted as they did, and express in the same way why they still stand by the choice they made, if they do. The back and forth slanging matches are all very entertaining (well, they are to me, if you didn't already guess), but it would be good to have some actual intelligent, balanced discussion.

The obvious issue with this is that I've had the impression most of CC's right-wingers don't like to be disagreed with, and don't appear to grasp that the essence of debate and discussion requires defending a contrary position.

Anyway, on the whole I think it's working (although I admit I'm not across every topic), could do with a few more participants (yes - ones with different perspectives) and hasn't descended into a maelstrom of invective. Not yet, anyway...

In the part of the UK I live, the vote for Brexit was an overwhelming "leave", but, Tory voters are as rare as hens teeth. It would appear from my circle of acquaintances that being "right wing" and "a leaver" are not synonymous.

 

[Xipe Totec]

In the part of the UK I live, the vote for Brexit was an overwhelming "leave", but, Tory voters are as rare as hens teeth. It would appear from my circle of acquaintances that being "right wing" and "a leaver" are not synonymous.

Of course, I was just paraphrasing The Shepster there. At the time Brexit was never a party political issue and thinking about it, the current feelings of Labour/left wing Brexit voters would be arguably more interesting. Although that's going to have been influenced by the Tory implementation that's happened, what we've ended up with is probably not what they'd have wanted.

 

[BoldonLad]

Of course, I was just paraphrasing The Shepster there. At the time Brexit was never a party political issue and thinking about it, the current feelings of Labour/left wing Brexit voters would be arguably more interesting. Although that's going to have been influenced by the Tory implementation that's happened, what we've ended up with is probably not what they'd have wanted.

Yes, I am afraid I was not being very concise either.

One of the things which I don't like about this forum, the previous version on CC, and other similar internet discussion groups, I have dabbled in, is the "black and white" nature of much of the discussion.

I my life experience I have found that most people have rather varied shades of grey in they views, often based on THEIR life experiences, rather than any logical or "factually" defensible positions. I have also found that extremes can exist, within the same person, for example, I have an occasional (I cannot be in his company for TOO long), drinking acquaintance who is a true BNP type, in most of his views, but, the same chap does many "good" things, on a voluntary basis (eg delivering meals on wheels, driving a mini-bus for otherwise house bound people, etc).

At another time in my life, I worked for an Off-shore structures (oil rigs, etc) Company (I was in IT, not doing any of the "hard or unpleasant" manual stuff). I came across many who. were "Riggers", as I believe @shep is. They worked in often appalling conditions, and at heights which would have made me faint, and/or cr*p myself. Generally, they had different educational and social background to me, but, they earned lots of money (more than me). I cannot say I wanted to be "best mates" with most of them, but, I could enjoy socialising with them and listening to their "view of the world". A bit of understanding is a wonderful thing, in my view, and, you get that by listening, not shouting, IMHO of course.

I fear I may have drifted over into boredom land, so, I will stop there.

 

[BoldonLad]

Of course, I was just paraphrasing The Shepster there. At the time Brexit was never a party political issue and thinking about it, the current feelings of Labour/left wing Brexit voters would be arguably more interesting. Although that's going to have been influenced by the Tory implementation that's happened, what we've ended up with is probably not what they'd have wanted.

I voted Remain. Out of my circle of relations, friends and acquaintances, I know only two other people who also say they voted "remain" (and one of them is Mrs @BoldonLad). When it is discussed in the club , on a Friday night, most of my leave voting acquaintances, you are right, they are unhappy with the outcome, almost to a man (or woman), they feel we should have done an even harder Brexit! (ie just tear up all the treaties, pay nothing, and walk away).

I have no way of knowing for certain how/if any of them vote in a GE, or, a Local Election, but, I would be amazed if there are any Tory voters among them (including me).

Final irony, "the club", is the Conservative Club (their beer is cheap, and, it is a comfortable sort of place, with a good snooker table, and, it is on a bus route).

 

[Fab Foodie]

I’d like to say in response to whoever posted this thread, that I have found this NACA a much quieter place now you’re all my ‘Ignore’ list….

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Why should people need to 'defend' their voting choices to some stranger on a cycling forum?

I wouldn't expect you to 'defend ' your decision as it would make me appear superior in some way and think I know better.

I think explaining your views or opinions helps others’ understanding of your stance on a particular topic or policy. It also helps to separate evidence-based views from prejudice.

 

[FishFright]

We could do with more people from the right who aren't bat shoot crazy and can defend and explain their views without all the mindless drivel. A good few of my friends are on the right and are perfectly capable of a reasoned debate and we enjoy great political discourse even when we are dramatically opposed to each other's view points. I'm also on other forums where such things are debated in a rational manner , although with healthy amounts of arguments because politics are important.

So why not here ?

 

[Deleted member 28]

We could do with more people from the right who aren't bat shoot crazy and can defend and explain their views without all the mindless drivel. A good few of my friends are on the right and are perfectly capable of a reasoned debate and we enjoy great political discourse even when we are dramatically opposed to each other's view points. I'm also on other forums where such things are debated in a rational manner , although with healthy amounts of arguments because politics are important.

So why not here ?

Seems no-one is really that interested, me included, I only post in this bit as I'm still banned from the other side.
I never bothered with the political side of the forum until I clicked 'new posts' and someone started a thread on the kneeling down at Football matches which caught My attention.

I soon realised how far removed from my opinions on thing's most people on here are so get sucked in sometimes, I guess if people are really interested in reasoned political debate a cycling forum probably isn't going to fulfill your needs.

 

[Deleted member 28]

What's the point of telling people your voting choices if you don't want to be asked about them? Clearly you think you 'know better' or you wouldn't have voted the way you did - which is completely fine, but the point of any discussion is to talk about things, understand opposing views and possibly to change others' minds - which works both ways.

To turn it around, if you don't care about other people's reasons & thinking, why post things you know will be challenged in the first place? I'm pretty sure anyone here whose views you disagree with would be perfectly happy to 'defend' those views. 'Explain' would be a better word. It doesn't have to be a slagging/sneering match.

I've said in the past I get the impression people on here think Leave voters regret their decision and we're all feeling sorry for ourselves so I try to address the balance, I've never said it was a success just that I'm happy enough with the outcome, it's all very boring now as it's been said before.

 

[swansonj]

We could do with more people from the right who aren't bat shoot crazy and can defend and explain their views without all the mindless drivel. A good few of my friends are on the right and are perfectly capable of a reasoned debate and we enjoy great political discourse even when we are dramatically opposed to each other's view points. I'm also on other forums where such things are debated in a rational manner , although with healthy amounts of arguments because politics are important.

So why not here ?

We need an Ainsley Hayes and an Arnold Vinick.....

 

[BoldonLad]

I think explaining your views or opinions helps others’ understanding of your stance on a particular topic or policy. It also helps to separate evidence-based views from prejudice.

Are there only two types of view? ie those based on evidence and those based on prejudice?