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monkers

Legendary Member
No I don't think we can pin this problem on farmers either, but I'm not sure anyone was trying to do that though 🤔.

It's guns for sure, and a violence driven society, a society that seems to have pretty much zero regard for the overall wellbeing of its citizens.

Despite its much vaunted claims to 'freedom'

The 'freedom' to fear that your kids might not reach adulthood doesn't seem like much of a boast.Sure

Sure, but my point was farmers have guns by way of some necessity, or at least tradition. They have availability but do not tend to go around attacking schools.

In the USA freedom of a kind of absolute freedom of speech is guaranteed by the constitution. What the constitution could not have foreseen was the internet and social media. Combine the oppression of the vulnerable by one political party in particular, the media, in the name of freedom of speech, add the availability of guns and you can be sure to see people who are driven mad doing mad things.

The UK does not have absolute freedom of speech, or such ready availability of guns, but we do have vulnerable people targeted by cyber bullies, being incensed with rage and using whatever that comes to hand as a weapon. There are Americans who have not just a shotgun say, but an arsenal of assault rifles, had guns etc. I'm just one woman with an opinion, but America needs much more determination to make this stop.
 
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mudsticks

Squire
Sure, but my point was farmers have guns by way of some necessity, or at least tradition. They have availability but do not tend to go around attacking schools.

In the USA freedom of a kind of absolute freedom of speech is guaranteed by the constitution. What the constitution could not have foreseen was the internet and social media. Combine the oppression of the vulnerable by one political party in particular, the media, in the name of freedom of speech, add the availability of guns and you can be sure to see people who are driven mad doing mad things.

The UK does not have absolute freedom of speech, or such ready availability of guns, but we do have vulnerable people targeted by cyber bullies, being incensed with rage and using whatever that comes to hand as a weapon. There are Americans who have not just a shotgun say, but an arsenal of assault rifles, had guns etc. I'm just one woman with an opinion, but America needs much more determination to make this stop.

Oh yes cyber bullying, death threats against politicians, women, and vulnerable minorities being harassed and threatened.

All kinds of horrible things happen online

But t'internet can also be a great force for good too, if used well...
Hmmn that's a topic all of its own.

I'm not sure why the gun lobby in the US has quite so such power - money I guess??

But surely something has to change around gun availability before too long.

The right to bare arms came about in a time of single shot rifles, nothing like what's available now.
There's no equivalence .
I'm sure things could be changed, but is the collective will there??
 

mudsticks

Squire
I wonder if he’s a Christian? 🤔

Course he is - stands to reason dunnit?

What with him being stood in front of a Christmas tree with his lovely festive family n all, like that ..🙏🏼🌵

Jesus would have loved guns if only they'd gotten round to inventing them before those meanie Romans murdered him by other means..

Peace and love and goodwill to all men, but packing an assault rifle each, also - just to be on the safe side you understand..👍🏼
 

mudsticks

Squire

mudsticks

Squire
Not sure if if this has been posted here before, but Washington Post's article titled: " Why so many guns on Christmas cards? Because Jesus was ‘manly and virile.’ " Is an interesting and disturbing read.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/14/guns-christmas-thomas-massie-lauren-boebert/
The appeal to a particular flavour of butch homoeroticism stands out a mile - if you'll pardon the pun..

Cowboys, rugged chaps with bulging packets - even Jesus as the guy who only hung with his bros..
Womens role reduced to mo's or ho's.

The whole worship of caricatured macho masculinity - it would be kinda hilarious if it didn't have such disastrous outcomes .
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
It's a long time since I've been to the US. Do any states have the regulations on buying blades/knives that we have in the UK? That was introduced here in response to knife crime. Different thing I know but nobody felt aggrieved at not being able to buy a machete anymore. It's such a different mind set in the US; it's hard to get your head round.

Just as I cannot see any reason for members of the British public to own/carry a gun, I cannot see any reason for members of the British public to carry a machete. However, the restrictions on knife sales have not eliminated knife crime. I suppose, you could argue it would have been even worse without the current restrictions.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
I've been looking through a number of reports and comparing the attitudes of the writers. For some it is the wide availability of guns, some wanting tighter rules for registration. Others want a total ban on sales. Others are content to punch down on people who fall into certain demographics. For some people the problem is republicans, for others it is 'loners', or maybe 'people with autism', or 'resentful gays', or 'transgenders'.

It's interesting to me that some ignore the fact that the majority of the offenders are cis and male, but more importantly it seems that each writer is keen to pin the cause as a single cause. America is keen to look to deny that they have a gun-ho culture despite the fact that is how they love to portray themselves in books, films, video games and even within their porn culture.

The bullying, harassment, and victimisation is prevalent in American schools, and fighting back tends to be the stock answer to prevention. American culture perpetuates a circle of violent behaviour. America wishes to deny these obvious influences on their culture. It is unfortunate that this is coupled with such religious belief that moral indignation becomes the self-justification for the brutality in this culture.

At the moment, many are saying in answer to some questions, 'it's too early to say'. Others are rabbiting including in this place about the effects of testosterone on trans men. The details are such that we are even given the make and model of the car they arrived in, but as a person who was only just very recently coming out as a trans person, that likelihood of HRT use may be low.

When I sum the known facts, I arrive not at a conclusion, but a suspicion of the events that may have later given motive.

Audrey Hale had high-functioning autism. This may have been better ameliorated in a school with some specialist arrangements. Instead, parents who themselves were church ministers paid for private education in a church school. Audrey had told their parents that they were gay. This led to to huge fall out. One can imagine the fall out when they found that Audrey now identifies as a different gender.

It is reported that Audrey Hale had the school under observation. When the attack took place, it was not the school itself that was under attack, it was the church attached to the school which is why there was such a low number of children there. Audrey may have expected to met none. The first room to be visited was the church office indicating that it is likely she had specific targets, but not children.

While the availability of guns is a very large problem is USA culture, so is the toxic macho culture making the preparedness to use guns is another.

To me America is a paradox. It is a rights-centred and rights-driven culture, that places greater impetus and imperative on the right to religious belief, right to absolute free speech, and right to bear arms, with limited responsibility for consequence coupled with a high litigation culture. And yet, these rights seem to trump the right to life.

There are aggravating factors, particularly the Republican favouring media in the hands of billionaires such a Murdoch and Musk who see profit in the kind of controversy that causes division.

The gun culture may not be coming to the UK soon but much else is, especially the lie that the UK has absolute free speech without consequence; it hasn't. In the UK this lie is now not only defended by Conservatives, but parliamentarians in opposition parties.

It isn't just a time for the USA to reflect on their culture issues, it's time for the UK too. At the moment we are undergoing a culture shift where we justify punching down on the vulnerable, people with disabilities, those with poor mental health, those without work, those without homes, those who are refugees, those people who are sit somewhere in the LGBTiQ community. The UK is reaching towards the kind of culture of unkindness to others being witnessed in the USA. We may not have the gun culture, but guns are not the only weapons. We are trending towards a more violent society with less resources allocated to counter it. As humans we need to change or else be in danger of losing our humanity.
 
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mudsticks

Squire
I've been looking through a number of reports and comparing the attitudes of the writers. For some it is the wide availability of guns, some wanting tighter rules for registration. Others want a total ban on sales. Others are content to punch down on people who fall into certain demographics. For some people the problem is republicans, for others it is 'loners', or maybe 'people with autism', or 'resentful gays', or 'transgenders'.

It's interesting to me that some ignore the fact that the majority of the offenders are cis and male, but more importantly it seems that each writer is keen to pin the cause as a single cause. America is keen to look to deny that they have a gun-ho culture despite the fact that is how they love to portray themselves in books, films, video games and even within their porn culture.

The bullying, harassment, and victimisation is prevalent in American schools, and fighting back tends to be the stock answer to prevention. American culture perpetuates a circle of violent behaviour. America wishes to deny these obvious influences on their culture. It is unfortunate that this is coupled with such religious belief that moral indignation becomes the self-justification for the brutality in this culture.

At the moment, many are saying in answer to some questions, 'it's too early to say'. Others are rabbiting including in this place about the effects of testosterone on trans men. The details are such that we are even given the make and model of the car they arrived in, but as a person who was only just very recently coming out as a trans person, that likelihood may be low.

When I sum the known facts, I arrive not at a conclusion, but a suspicion of the events that may have later given motive.

Audrey Hale had high-functioning autism. This may have been better ameliorated in a school with some specialist arrangements. Instead, parents who themselves were church ministers paid for private education in a church school. Audrey had told their parents that they were gay. This led to to huge fall out. One can imagine the fall out when they found that Audrey now identifies as a different gender.

It is reported that Audrey Hale had left the school under observation. When the attack took place, it was not the school itself that was under attack, it was the church attached to the school which is why there was such a low number of children there. Audrey may have expected to met none. The first room to be visited was the church office indicating that it is likely she had specific targets, but not children.

While the availability of guns is a very large problem is USA culture, so is the toxic macho culture making the preparedness to use guns is another.

To me America is a paradox. It is a rights-centred and rights-driven culture, that places greater impetus and imperative on the right to religious belief, right to absolute free speech, and right to bear arms, with limited responsibility for consequence coupled with a high litigation culture. An yet, these rights seem to trump the right to life.

There are aggravating factors, particularly the Republican favouring media in the hands of billionaires such a Murdoch and Musk who see profit in the kind of controversy that causes division.

The gun culture may not be coming to the UK soon but much else is, especially the lie that the UK has absolute free speech without consequence; it hasn't. In the UK this lie is now not only defended by Conservatives, but parliamentarians in opposition parties.

It isn't just a time for the USA to reflect on their culture issues, it's time for the UK too. At the moment we are undergoing a culture shift where we justify punching down on the vulnerable, people with disabilities, those with poor mental health, those without work, those without homes, those who are refugees, those people who are sit somewhere in the LGBTiQ community. The UK is reaching towards the kind of culture of unkindness to others being witnessed in the USA. We may not have the gun culture, but guns are not the only weapons. We are trending towards a more violent society with less resources allocated to counter it. As humans we need to change or else be in danger of losing our humanity.
It's the same old 'might is right' 'everyman for himself' 'glorifying apparently self made men' 'no such thing as society' 'competition is king' schizzle that's been playing out over there - and here for years .

And yes the same attitudes have crept over here, hence brexit, hence the ideas of anything remotely approaching socialism, or progressive thought being rejected by the very demographic who would benefit most .
We just do it slightly differently.

American 'culture' violent films, pornography, prudish and regressive attitudes to actual women and non conforming sexuality..

And the twisting of religion to justify all kinds of repression, and violence..

MSM being funded by those who profit from all of the above doesn't help much either..
 
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monkers

Legendary Member
It's the same old 'might is right' 'everyman for himself' 'glorifying apparently self made men' 'no such thing as society' 'competition is king' schizzle that's been playing out over there - and here for years .

And yes the same attitudes have crept over here, hence brexit, hence the ideas of anything remotely approaching socialism, or progressive thought being rejected by the very demographic who would benefit most .
We just do it slightly differently.

American 'culture' violent films, pornography, prudish and regressive attitudes to actual women and non conforming sexuality..

And the twisting of religion to justify all kinds of repression, and violence..

MSM being funded by those who profit from all of the above doesn't help much either..

We have been doing it differently. People have been saying for years, that whatever America does the UK follows. My point is that we have been changing our values in the UK.

Sorry to mention WW2, but it was Eleanor Roosevelt who chaired the meeting of the newly formed United Nations human rights working committee and helped to thrash out the texts for worldwide human rights with Churchill and others with the intent of preventing any repeat of the circumstance that had led to world war, and the atrocities committed against the right to life. Having done so, the UK as a founding member signed every paragraph of every article.

Roosevelt having made this effort, then refused to sign all of the articles because otherwise they would conflict with their sacred constitution. America consider the 30 Articles as something to sort Europe and the rest of the world out while they continue with the culture of violence within their own borders. Successive American Presidents have concerned themselves with supporting the Belfast Agreement and ending the violence in Northern Ireland, but seem unable to stop the violence in their own country. This is because for Ireland it has been a culture of political struggle, whereas for America it is a culture of toxic masculinity.

By way of comparison, the Republic of Ireland has a democratic process for reforming the constitution, which is why they have frequent referenda, and the reason why the people had the right to voted in the treaty concerning the constitution of the EU.

The UK does not have a written codified constitution. Instead the UK loves to argue with itself about its values based on medieval scripts dating form King John. The Bill of Rights 1689 still prevails in many aspects of rights especially concerning the rights of parliamentarians, and the rights of people to elect them, though it didn't make the best job of that you might say as the UK had a democracy with 80% of adults disenfranchised.

One danger has been caused by Brexit. 'Take back control (from the Europeans)' was the mantra. What the UK is seeing is a shift from the human rights that the UK developed and signed in 1948. These were until now, our human rights. Brexit is trashing those British values and their place trending to adopt the American ones that we otherwise criticise - makes something of a mockery of taking back control I'd say.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
I've spent some time this morning digging around the Hale case. What I have found has made for harrowing reading. Behind the case is a net of county wide child sexual abuse dating back to the period when Hale was at school. In one case the victim of sexual abuse was a three year boy. The schools involved were church schools and culminated in allegations, cases, trials, and appeals. The defendants were found mostly not guilty.

I don't need telling that to say that it would at this time be highly speculative to assert that Hale was one such victim. Please note I am not asserting or suggesting that. I am however saying that I believe there is sufficient potential for this that it must become part of an police investigation or forthcoming public enquiry (whatever terms are favoured in the USA).

The school that Hale attended was not an exception, four defendants in the name of Austin Hale et al took legal action against the school at about the time Hale attended. The defendants were found mostly not guilty.

One thing that we know the internet has done, has given such facility in communication especially for those who may be prevented meeting others due to the case.

One does not have to work the imagination too hard to picture a scenario where young people who have become victims of widespread sexual abuse tending to use the internet to stay connected to each other. In these circumstances one can picture how resentment becomes reinforced in victims as they communicate, sharing their experiences and the ongoing effects these have had on their lives. Again it is not difficult to imagine how the first victim to declare a recourse to violence to be egged on by some others.

From my reading I can understand how a group of young people will have felt that they have not just had their voices heard, but when they are heard they are ignored. It is just too easy to prevent young people effective remedy against authority.

I'm alleging nothing in the Hale case, but given my reading, the state needs to now be rigorous in dealing with these cases or else expose the risk of further harm.
 
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