AI fails

[PurplePenguin]

Think you've both missed my point. If you get a degree and then go on to research that subject further, then you are using it. That seems worthwhile.

 

[briantrumpet]

Think you've both missed my point. If you get a degree and then go on to research that subject further, then you are using it. That seems worthwhile.

I'm tempted to ask "What about (say) getting a history degree and going into recruitment?...

...but I shan't.

Flippancy aside, I suspect that when I went to university (at about 10% of school leavers), most/many degrees were just for the sake of learning stuff (and only a small number went on to further research), and through that process developing (or not) further intellectual curiosity, whether or not post-university the degrees were directly relevant to specific careers. Obviously some were more 'vocational' (e.g. engineering), but others more 'just for the sake of it' (does degree-level maths have specific applications divorced from, say, engineering or physics?).

Music - well, maybe it's just a waste of time (other than getting a colourful poncy gown & hood). Who knows?

 

[Pblakeney]

I'm tempted to ask "What about (say) getting a history degree and going into recruitment?...

...but I shan't.

Flippancy aside, I suspect that when I went to university (at about 10% of school leavers), most/many degrees were just for the sake of learning stuff (and only a small number went on to further research), and through that process developing (or not) further intellectual curiosity, whether or not post-university the degrees were directly relevant to specific careers. Obviously some were more 'vocational' (e.g. engineering), but others more 'just for the sake of it' (does degree-level maths have specific applications divorced from, say, engineering or physics?).

Music - well, maybe it's just a waste of time (other than getting a colourful poncy gown & hood). Who knows?

Counter argument is that during that time of 10% admissions there were a lot of apprentices, and further, going on day release which most definitely were going to study things directly connected to their careers. Skews the figures somewhat.

 

[icowden]

Music - well, maybe it's just a waste of time (other than getting a colourful poncy gown & hood). Who knows?

On the one hand you could argue that my Music degree is pointless. On the other hand, it shows employers that I studied something at degree level and has helped me get jobs. My current job in Data Migration is based on my CV of past work but also on the fact that I have been educated at degree level.

My occasional work as organist, accompanist, choir leader, MD, cocktail pianist and singer are all attributable to my musical skills honed at degree level (I chose largely performance based modules). That pays a bit of cash too.

So even the degrees that appear to be worthless have worth. I disapprove strongly of the notion that children should be focusing on maths and the sciences, as it's been proven time and time again that study of art or music, playing an instrument, is inextricably linked to high attainment and high intelligence. Children who have done the arts to a high level do better. You will find Consultants and Surgeons that are also Concert Pianists or play in orchestras or sing in top choirs.

Music is really common in the IT field - the ability to analyse music, to pick out notes, to read multiple inputs at the same time, to spot that which is out of pattern, these are key analytical and coding skills.

And I didn't get a colourful poncy gown & hood - who do I sue?

PS. My dad got a poncy red one for doing a PHD at St Andrews on Pulsed NMR Studies of Solid Polymers - whatever that is...

 

[briantrumpet]

On the one hand you could argue that my Music degree is pointless. On the other hand, it shows employers that I studied something at degree level and has helped me get jobs. My current job in Data Migration is based on my CV of past work but also on the fact that I have been educated at degree level.

My occasional work as organist, accompanist, choir leader, MD, cocktail pianist and singer are all attributable to my musical skills honed at degree level (I chose largely performance based modules). That pays a bit of cash too.

So even the degrees that appear to be worthless have worth. I disapprove strongly of the notion that children should be focusing on maths and the sciences, as it's been proven time and time again that study of art or music, playing an instrument, is inextricably linked to high attainment and high intelligence. Children who have done the arts to a high level do better. You will find Consultants and Surgeons that are also Concert Pianists or play in orchestras or sing in top choirs.

Music is really common in the IT field - the ability to analyse music, to pick out notes, to read multiple inputs at the same time, to spot that which is out of pattern, these are key analytical and coding skills.

And I didn't get a colourful poncy gown & hood - who do I sue?

PS. My dad got a poncy red one for doing a PHD at St Andrews on Pulsed NMR Studies of Solid Polymers - whatever that is...

Not sure what National Milk Records needed to know about solid polymers... shoes how little I know.

My poncy garb is because I thought that one pointless degree wasn't enough.

 

[Ian H]

Yes, so people say, but why not learn how to learn whilst learning something you might use again?

You mean that the learning you learnt to learn isn't something you will learn from or find useful in future life?

 

[secretsqirrel]

On the one hand you could argue that my Music degree is pointless. On the other hand, it shows employers that I studied something at degree level and has helped me get jobs. My current job in Data Migration is based on my CV of past work but also on the fact that I have been educated at degree level.

My occasional work as organist, accompanist, choir leader, MD, cocktail pianist and singer are all attributable to my musical skills honed at degree level (I chose largely performance based modules). That pays a bit of cash too.

So even the degrees that appear to be worthless have worth. I disapprove strongly of the notion that children should be focusing on maths and the sciences, as it's been proven time and time again that study of art or music, playing an instrument, is inextricably linked to high attainment and high intelligence. Children who have done the arts to a high level do better. You will find Consultants and Surgeons that are also Concert Pianists or play in orchestras or sing in top choirs.

Music is really common in the IT field - the ability to analyse music, to pick out notes, to read multiple inputs at the same time, to spot that which is out of pattern, these are key analytical and coding skills.

And I didn't get a colourful poncy gown & hood - who do I sue?

PS. My dad got a poncy red one for doing a PHD at St Andrews on Pulsed NMR Studies of Solid Polymers - whatever that is...

This is important joined up thinking.

If all kids learned e.g. recorder/ukulele, singing or whatever, like team sports it helps with inter personal interaction and empathy.

Moving forward this may reduce the epidemic of mental health issues that are getting young people signed off from work and claiming benefits later on.

 

[briantrumpet]

This is important joined up thinking.

If all kids learned e.g. recorder/ukulele, singing or whatever, like team sports it helps with inter personal interaction and empathy.

Moving forward this may reduce the epidemic of mental health issues that are getting young people signed off from work and claiming benefits later on.

One of the best things I've done was a trombone project at a local primary school with a very high proportion of free school meal children (the highest in the whole of the south west, I think), and they were fantastic - I had about 60 of them in two classes all learning a tune by ear and improvising. The sad thing was that when the project ended, even though we'd managed to get a music centre set up at their school partly on the back of the project, hardly any of the kids carried on with it, and most of the kinds who came to the music centre came from other more 'middle class' schools nearby.

It's great that these days music hubs (and certainly the one in Devon) do whole-class work on things like ukulele and recorder, so most children do get at least some experience of music, but it's still challenging to keep most kids playing instruments beyond the whole-class provision, as it costs, and for a number of other reasons is hard to integrate in households with all sorts of other challenges.

Of course, historically, brass bands were set up expressly for working class communities, with mine and mill owners recognising that music could help make a tough life more tolerable.

 

[AndyRM]

This is important joined up thinking.

If all kids learned e.g. recorder/ukulele, singing or whatever, like team sports it helps with inter personal interaction and empathy.

Moving forward this may reduce the epidemic of mental health issues that are getting young people signed off from work and claiming benefits later on.

Hold up.

I did all those things (although not the ukulele), and I'm still certifiably bonkers.

Where did I go wrong?!

(I am only joking, because I agree with your point and I'm fortunate that despite some seriously grim periods I've come through the worst, I hope/think.)

 

[PurplePenguin]

You mean that the learning you learnt to learn isn't something you will learn from or find useful in future life?

I know my view is not a popular one, but I do think it is clear and not hard to understand.

A physicist who goes into banking will get far more use out of a CFA charter than their physics degree. They may have got even more use out of a specific finance degree, but those are looked down on (unless it's a masters) because they are not proper degrees. In all cases, the person is learning, and in your view, learning how to learn.

 

[C R]

I know my view is not a popular one, but I do think it is clear and not hard to understand.

A physicist who goes into banking will get far more use out of a CFA charter than their physics degree. They may have got even more use out of a specific finance degree, but those are looked down on (unless it's a masters) because they are not proper degrees. In all cases, the person is learning, and in your view, learning how to learn.

I disagree. The most important thing you learn during a degree is how to think about problems. The subjects you learn are excuses to exercise the problem solving skills. The subject specific things you learn, other than the very basics, are where to look for reading material if one of your problems involves that subject.

 

[briantrumpet]

I disagree. The most important thing you learn during a degree is how to think about problems. The subjects you learn are excuses to exercise the problem solving skills. The subject specific things you learn, other than the very basics, are where to look for reading material if one of your problems involves that subject.

My vaguely academic interests have sprawled since my specific academic periods, but have benefited enormously from the focused academic work on music (especially the OU MA that I did in my early 40s, which was really well-structured).

 

[PurplePenguin]

I disagree. The most important thing you learn during a degree is how to think about problems. The subjects you learn are excuses to exercise the problem solving skills. The subject specific things you learn, other than the very basics, are where to look for reading material if one of your problems involves that subject.

And why not exercise problem solving skills whilst learning some subject that might be of use?

 

[briantrumpet]

And why not exercise problem solving skills whilst learning some subject that might be of use?

Perhaps you could narrow down a "subject that might be of use" by telling us what undergraduate degrees taken by people who don't go on to a further degree aren't of use in themselves. You seem to be saying that pursuing understanding in a subject that isn't directly work-related isn't really of any use. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[C R]

And why not exercise problem solving skills whilst learning some subject that might be of use?

Again, I disagree, more specialised degrees tend to focus too much on solving particular problems rather than on teaching problem solving as a skill. That's why people with "foundation degrees" such as classics, physics or mathematics tend to be more intellectually flexible (maybe physicists not so much)