Assisted Dying, Yes or No?

[First Aspect]

A better alternative - to this poor piece of legislation anyway - is to ensure high standards of palliative care throughout the UK. The hospice movement is mostly funded through charity for a start. If anything though, passing this law will make that less likely as palliative care has improved more slowly in those countries with assisted dying than in those without. (Can't find the link for this atm, will post if I find it). The NHS still hasn't implemented palliative care improvements that were mooted 10 years ago.

Why does it have to be an alternative?

Besides, one of the many points you've ignored is that palliative care is not a fix for all suffering, nor should people be deprived of informed alternatives thereto.

At this point you pretending to be anything other than opposed in principle is only slightly short of trolling.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It doesn't but it should go hand in hand with quality palliative care whereas it may well not. One of the ammendments that was voted down was a requirement that a patient have access to a palliative care specialist.

 

[First Aspect]

It doesn't but it should go hand in hand with quality palliative care whereas it may well not. One of the ammendments that was voted down was a requirement that a patient have access to a palliative care specialist.

Why wouldn't it go hand in hand with palliative care? Do you think people will opt for discomfort while they wait for the court procedure to run it's course?

 

[AuroraSaab]

They won't necessarily have access to good palliative care because seeing a palliative care specialist is not a requirement for assisted dying to be implemented. If they think there is no quality specialist palliative care available (which is different to just being given pain killers etc) they may opt for assisted dying out of desperation.

 

[First Aspect]

They won't necessarily have access to good palliative care because seeing a palliative care specialist is not a requirement for assisted dying to be implemented. If they think there is no quality specialist palliative care available (which is different to just being given pain killers etc) they may opt for assisted dying out of desperation.

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Do you understand the distinction between a survey result like that and an assessment of palliative care quality and outcomes? I assume not.

In any case, I'm struggling to stay engaged with this game of whackamole. It was mental health last week, now it's a binary choice between palliative care and assisted suicide.

You are against the idea in principle. I know this because you've not advanced a solution of any kind.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I understand that the palliative care specialists association, disability rights groups, geriatric groups, and many others who deal with the most vulnerable patients, have the same concerns as I do, all whilst not being against assisted dying in principle. The solution is to take longer to work through the minutiae of such legislation and listen to the experts in the field.

 

[First Aspect]

I understand that the palliative care specialists association, disability rights groups, geriatric groups, and many others who deal with the most vulnerable patients, have the same concerns as I do, all whilst not being against assisted dying in principle. The solution is to take longer to work through the minutiae of such legislation and listen to the experts in the field.

Look, if your concern is by proxy that's fine. I don't agree but that's also fine. I guess the difficulty arises when you definitively state what those proxy concerns are, without really understanding them.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Condescending dismissal of every professional group who have concerns about this legislation, because of course nobody understands it as well as you do....

 

[First Aspect]

Condescending dismissal of every professional group who have concerns about this legislation, because of course nobody understands it as well as you do....

There are valid concerns (and also irrelevant ones) but on balance, in my opinion it is better to take this first step than not. No law is immutable. So it can be refined if required. In the meantime, overall fewer people will suffer. This seems to now be, in our democracy, a majority view.

Your position, at best, is of perpetual indecision. You seem to be looking for a situation where no one objects. That utopia is never going to occur, and therefore you are against the concept in principle.

 

[AuroraSaab]

No. I think there is probably a workable compromise but the devil is in the detail and there needs to be a greater consensus - not necessarily a complete one - before we legislate.

 

[Pblakeney]

No. I think there is probably a workable compromise but the devil is in the detail and there needs to be a greater consensus - not necessarily a complete one - before we legislate.

That is the entire point of the current process. Once complete there will be greater consensus. I don't think you'll like that consensus, but that won't really matter as people squabbling on a cycling forum is as close to irrelevant as you can get.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There actually seems to be less concensus than before it started. The views on this niche forum are irrelevant, as you say, and aren't representative of anything much, other than a few polarised opinions.

 

[Pblakeney]

There actually seems to be less concensus than before it started.

The process is not complete. Get back to us when it is. It's not as if we have much sway in the matter, unless you have the ear of your MP.

 

[Bazzer]

A better alternative - to this poor piece of legislation anyway - is to ensure high standards of palliative care throughout the UK. The hospice movement is mostly funded through charity for a start. If anything though, passing this law will make that less likely as palliative care has improved more slowly in those countries with assisted dying than in those without. (Can't find the link for this atm, will post if I find it). The NHS still hasn't implemented palliative care improvements that were mooted 10 years ago.

High standards of palliative care isn't an alternative to the legislation. As expressed on here by some and no doubt in hundreds of homes throughout the country, there are many who for personal reasons do not want palliative care, whether "high standard" or the current system.
Furthermore, given there are currently thousands of beds occupied by people who could be discharged from hospital, but whose care cannot be met outside the hospital, your "high standards of palliative care throughout the UK" is a fantasy world.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's not meant to be an alternative but poorer palliative care will push people towards assisted dying who may otherwise not have opted for it.