Big brother Tesla

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AndyRM

Elder Goth
Dreamland from Musk, as per.
 
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albion

Guest
Waymo has real self driving hardware. No none Lidar limitations there.
 

AndyRM

Elder Goth
Where does Polestar rank compared to Tesla in terms of technology? I'm not about to be buying a car any time soon but I like their adverts!
 

icowden

Squire
Where does Polestar rank compared to Tesla in terms of technology? I'm not about to be buying a car any time soon but I like their adverts!
I think pretty good, and they probably rank #2 behind Tesla. The Polestar 2 has crappy rear seats though and it doesn't have anything to match FSD.
 

icowden

Squire
Waymo has real self driving hardware. No none Lidar limitations there.

It's not a limitation it's a design choice. Watch some of the Tesla FSD videos. It's really very good.
 

stowie

Active Member
No - Tesla obvs.

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/06/t...tches-waymo-skills-despite-far-less-hardware/

Waymo are geofenced to San Francisco. Tesla has data from all over the world and more of it.

The phrase "most technologically advanced" is very open to interpretation. Waymo have achieved Level 4 autonomy but, as you say, in a restricted geography. Mercedes has been certified for Level 3 in the US, but only on certain road types (highways only I think but not 100%). Tesla is only Level 2, but achieves that level in more circumstances than the others can maintain a higher autonomy level.

All that said, Tesla autonomy is highly impressive, even if the mantle of "the most advanced" might be debated.

The problem I have with Tesla's direction is that chasing autonomy might be a very elusive goal, and Musk has committed the company future (or at least share price) to the capability of autonomy. Secondly, I don't think many "mainstream" buyers select cars primarily on autonomy and Tesla has been winning on the more prosaic race around charging infrastructure which I would argue is much more important for sales and the average buyer. Tesla seem to be doing some strange things with their charging strategy (including sacking the entire development teams associated with it). Then there is range and battery technology - Tesla seemed to be leading this in previous years, but look at the Chinese car manufacturers (or some European ones) and they are coming out with impressive battery technology and range. Lastly, the Cybertruck is - in my opinion - a piece of narcissistic nonsense driven by Musk ego rather than market realities. It will never be sold in Europe as is, has a myriad of problems associated with it, and doesn't push EVs forward in the same way that the first Roadstar, the Model S or the Model 3 did. It feels like a product from a company that has lost sight of its objectives, one of which absolutely should have been a low cost entry EV - otherwise Tesla will start getting their lunch eaten by the Chinese manufacturers even with 100% tariffs.

Where does Polestar rank compared to Tesla in terms of technology? I'm not about to be buying a car any time soon but I like their adverts!

As far as I am aware, Polestar has "Advanced Driving assistance". This means it has active cruise control (via radar) and in lane management. Tesla (and some others such as BMW and Mercedes) have other features such as autonomous lane changing, traffic light recognition and so on.

Polestar is a mid size family saloon, pitched firmly against the likes of Tesla model 3. I have been driven in one - they are good. More traditional car interior than a Tesla 3 and excellent build quality. So it is really personal preference.

It's not a limitation it's a design choice. Watch some of the Tesla FSD videos. It's really very good.

FSD is an exceptional level 2 autonomous system. If Tesla were developing this as advanced driver aids this would be fine. It isn't the technology but rather the marketing hype that is wrong - it isn't FSD, and should not have been sold as such.

The camera systems are definitely a choice, and I can see the argument to be made to remove expensive LIDAR / RADAR. Removal of ultrasonic sensors makes no sense to me at all. They are cheap, reliable and thoroughly tested in millions of cars. For low speed situational awareness they are very, very good.

I still maintain that level 5 autonomy is a way off. Car makers would be best making sure that the driving aids they put on their cars are both technically excellent and also manage the psycological issues around autonomy with the driver.
 
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icowden

Squire
Ha ha. Tell that to the deceased.
Your ignorance is showing. There have been 44 Tesla Autopilot Deaths in 8 years. There are over 4.75 million Tesla cars in the world that have Autopilot functionality and the capability to upgrade to advanced Autopilot or FSD. That's 0.0009%. And the majority of those deaths were avoidable had it been used as intended.

On the flip side there are 1.35 million deaths from other cars per year. So that's 10.8 million auto deaths in the same period worldwide and 1.47 billion cars in the world (including the Teslas which I haven't bothered to remove . That's a 0.09% chance of dying in an accident cause by a car without Autopilot. That makes a Tesla 100 times safer than all other cars from all other manufactures combined when Autopilot or above is engaged.
 

icowden

Squire
It feels like a product from a company that has lost sight of its objectives, one of which absolutely should have been a low cost entry EV - otherwise Tesla will start getting their lunch eaten by the Chinese manufacturers even with 100% tariffs.
That has never been part of the Tesla master plan. The plan was to create an expensive car then a medium cost car which would be hugely popular all the while improving autonomous driving.

Polestar is a mid size family saloon, pitched firmly against the likes of Tesla model 3. I have been driven in one - they are good. More traditional car interior than a Tesla 3 and excellent build quality. So it is really personal preference.
I agree. The Polestar feels more luxurious. However it is smaller in terms of boot space, and the back seat is incredibly cramped to get into compared to the 3. The Tesla also has longer range, a better supercharging infrastructure and more advanced tech.

FSD is an exceptional level 2 autonomous system. If Tesla were developing this as advanced driver aids this would be fine. It isn't the technology but rather the marketing hype that is wrong - it isn't FSD, and should not have been sold as such.
Fair point, but it's still better than the Polestar's lane keeping, so on balance Tesla still wins. However if you can't have a Tesla (say your fleet has removed it as it is too expensive to insure and repair) you are likely to be able to have a Polestar. I quite like the look of the new Polestar but it's pricey.
 

stowie

Active Member
That has never been part of the Tesla master plan. The plan was to create an expensive car then a medium cost car which would be hugely popular all the while improving autonomous driving.

A low cost EV (around $25k - Tesla 2) has been discussed for a long time by Tesla. At the beginning of April, there were reports it had been scrapped but Musk said that Tesla were planning launch of a low cost vehicle by beginning of 2025 during the shareholder call. The plan was to move down the car cost families with the previous (more expensive) family funding the next development. A good plan as more expensive cars in the luxury market tend to give more profit per unit than the cheaper families which rely upon volume and production efficiency to be profitable.

The Cybertruck seems to be a diversion from this solid plan, it adds nothing to the EV market aside from a flawed, huge pickup which won't be able to be sold in key markets.

agree. The Polestar feels more luxurious. However it is smaller in terms of boot space, and the back seat is incredibly cramped to get into compared to the 3. The Tesla also has longer range, a better supercharging infrastructure and more advanced tech.

The new Polestar 2 LR has a better WLTP than the Tesla 3 LR, this is the recent upgrade car rather the original one. I agree about the rear seats, it felt more like a BMW 3 series type space rather than some similar sized EVs where rear space has been maximised. The Tesla supercharger infrastructure is a great reason to choose Tesla, other networks are rolling out fast, but still not as developed as superchargers.

Fair point, but it's still better than the Polestar's lane keeping, so on balance Tesla still wins. However if you can't have a Tesla (say your fleet has removed it as it is too expensive to insure and repair) you are likely to be able to have a Polestar. I quite like the look of the new Polestar but it's pricey.

Polestar ADAS is much simpler but has no pretensions to be anything else other than a driver aid. It doesn't add too much to what I have on my aging BMW with front radar and adaptive cruise control.

My fundamental problem with the Tesla approach to marketing FSD is that it deliberately muddies the water between true autonomy and driver aids. FSD is a driver aid and should be considered as such. I mentioned at the beginning of this thread that the automatics on commercial aircraft has been shown to cause human issues (either through complexity, user complacency or unusual automatic reactions) and these are highly trained pilots. Car manufacturers need to take human factors much more seriously in car design and automation. Single large IPAD type screens outside the driver eyeline with no HUD is not great IMO. Automatics need to be designed and marketed in an honest way with care taken around driver involvement - it is no good to have automatics installed which require driver oversight and then not have any consideration to the human interaction component.

Musk and Tesla are in a bit of a bind with autonomy. The Tesla share price (and P/E) are priced as you might expect a high growth tech company rather than an automotive company. P/E on Tesla is an order of magnitude larger than most large auto makers. If Tesla are making cars with autonomy that is only likely to reach level 2 in the medium term, then investors might start to wonder why it is valued so differently to other companies doing similar things. So Musk needs to keep the show on the road, announcing Robotaxi and the low cost car in the last investor call. Do I think Robotaxi will be making their way onto our streets anytime soon? Absolutely not - it is another shiny thing waved at investors to keep them thinking about Tesla as a technology company rather than a car company.
 
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albion

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Any Robotaxi will need Lidar thus raising more questions about fatalistic FSD marketing.
 
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