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briantrumpet

briantrumpet

Timewaster
Gawd, isn't this just more populism? Give every household £100, and some more, to subsidise energy bills, at a time when we should be trying to use less energy? Something tells me that most of this money will end up in energy companies' profits anyway, given that most 'giveaways' (housing benefit, VAT reductions, etc.) don't help the people they are intended to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg49qn38ezo
 
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Dorset Boy

Senior Member
Gawd, isn't this just more populism? Give very household £100, and some more, to subsidise energy bills, at a time when we should be trying to use less energy? Something tells me that most of this money will end up in energy companies' profits anyway, given that most 'giveaways' (housing benefit, VAT reductions, etc.) don't help the people they are intended to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg49qn38ezo

You might not have noticed it, but for some reason the UK has amongst the highest energy costs in the world, and (the research suggests) people have cut back their use massively over the last few years.
And many people are struggling with basic living costs.

So helping them is a bad idea in your books....
 

Pblakeney

Squire
You might not have noticed it, but for some reason the UK has amongst the highest energy costs in the world, and (the research suggests) people have cut back their use massively over the last few years.
And many people are struggling with basic living costs.

So helping them is a bad idea in your books....

We should be asking why we are amongst the highest energy costs in the world.
I can think of no logical reason off the top of my head although I suspect that it is to do with the pricing methodology.
 

Dorset Boy

Senior Member
We should be asking why we are amongst the highest energy costs in the world.
I can think of no logical reason off the top of my head although I suspect that it is to do with the pricing methodology.

I totally agree we should be asking why our energy costs are so high comparative to the RoW.
It puts us at a huge diasadvantage internationally.
 
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briantrumpet

briantrumpet

Timewaster
We should be asking why we are amongst the highest energy costs in the world.
I can think of no logical reason off the top of my head although I suspect that it is to do with the pricing methodology.

This is the angle I'm coming from. Pouring more state money into the problem seems to be treating the symptoms in a very inefficient way (especially if it's also going into the bank accounts of people not struggling to pay), rather than dealing with the causes.

Next thing would be that right wingers would be complaining that taxes are too high and expenditure should be reduced. I really do not deserve a free handout of £100.
 

Dorset Boy

Senior Member
This is the angle I'm coming from. Pouring more state money into the problem seems to be treating the symptoms in a very inefficient way (especially if it's also going into the bank accounts of people not struggling to pay), rather than dealing with the causes.

Next thing would be that right wingers would be complaining that taxes are too high and expenditure should be reduced. I really do not deserve a free handout of £100.

It's probably a lot cheaper to give £100 to everyone than to try to means test it.
 

icowden

Pharaoh
I totally agree we should be asking why our energy costs are so high comparative to the RoW.
It puts us at a huge diasadvantage internationally.

We know why. It's doing something about it that seems to be problematic. The simple fact is that our wholesale market rules for energy are based around the premise that gas is cheap and used to fill demand gaps. Gas has become very expensive so our energy is very expensive.

In France they have a huge number of nuclear power stations so they rely much less on Gas. More importantly though we have had 10 years without being able to use the European interconnectors and EU energy market - other EU countries exchange energy surplus with each other. As of last December we were still trying to regain access to the EU IEM. Full membership of that (as we used to have) would have lowered our energy bills.

We have a huge amount of solar and wind with more coming, but no storage facilities for the electrons. We should be developing resources like hydro storage where surplus power is used to pump water into a high reservoir so that hydroelectric can be generated to fill gaps - for example, or looking at creating some battery farms. Milliband is accelerating renewables, but it will take a while to wean us off gas.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
This is the angle I'm coming from. Pouring more state money into the problem seems to be treating the symptoms in a very inefficient way (especially if it's also going into the bank accounts of people not struggling to pay), rather than dealing with the causes.

Next thing would be that right wingers would be complaining that taxes are too high and expenditure should be reduced. I really do not deserve a free handout of £100.

It’s a Lib-Dem idea, it will not happen
 

PurplePenguin

Über Member
We know why. It's doing something about it that seems to be problematic. The simple fact is that our wholesale market rules for energy are based around the premise that gas is cheap and used to fill demand gaps. Gas has become very expensive so our energy is very expensive.

In France they have a huge number of nuclear power stations so they rely much less on Gas. More importantly though we have had 10 years without being able to use the European interconnectors and EU energy market - other EU countries exchange energy surplus with each other. As of last December we were still trying to regain access to the EU IEM. Full membership of that (as we used to have) would have lowered our energy bills.

We have a huge amount of solar and wind with more coming, but no storage facilities for the electrons. We should be developing resources like hydro storage where surplus power is used to pump water into a high reservoir so that hydroelectric can be generated to fill gaps - for example, or looking at creating some battery farms. Milliband is accelerating renewables, but it will take a while to wean us off gas.

Most of this is incorrect:
- UK wholesale prices are comparable with much of northern Europe
- The UK trades power much like the rest of the EU
- The interconnectors are still used. If you look at any of the live grid watch websites, you will see just how much
- The UK is has more grid scale battery storage than the rest of Europe. It's currently around 11 GWh. The UK is a market leader in this area.

UK energy prices are higher because there are a load of other costs included in the final bill e.g. grid costs and subsidies. I don't think there is anything wrong with this as it encourages reduced consumption. Where it doesn't work is it discourages switching from gas (no extras for green subsidies) to electricity e.g. changing from a gas boiler to a heat pump.
 
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icowden

Pharaoh
- UK wholesale prices are comparable with much of northern Europe
But we need to buy more gas than they do, and our energy is pegged to the price of Gas
- The UK trades power much like the rest of the EU
But in a limited way as we are not part of the IEM again yet.

- The UK is has more grid scale battery storage than the rest of Europe. It's currently around 11 GWh. The UK is a market leader in this area.
But we don't have anywhere near enough not to rely on Gas. We need a lot more. In 2024 according to HOC it was 4.5GW, so if it is now 11, it's another area where Labour are really delivering.

UK energy prices are higher because there are a load of other costs included in the final bill e.g. grid costs and subsidies. I don't think there is anything wrong with this as it encourages reduced consumption. Where it doesn't work is it discourages switching from gas (no extras for green subsidies) to electricity e.g. changing from a gas boiler to a heat pump.
And because we use the price of gas to set the price of energy. We import a huge amount of gas and it's expensive.
Here;s a Nesta blog from 2024
https://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/uk-ho...MIpIqIgpH6lAMV-JxQBh03fiM6EAAYASAAEgJfa_D_BwE

In Great Britain, as in many other electricity markets, the price is determined by the most expensive source required to meet demand. Compared to EU countries, gas sets the wholesale price of electricity in the UK a significant proportion of the time. This is due to the UK's reliance on gas power plants for balancing supply and demand.

As electricity prices are effectively ‘coupled’ with natural gas prices, which are volatile and influenced by market conditions, the cost of electricity remains high even if household gas prices are lower.

The UK has the highest share of gas in setting wholesale, day-ahead electricity prices​


You are correct that taxes and levies make it even more expensive, adding one third of the cost, but it's the base price of gas that is making it as expensive as it is.
 

Psamathe

Legendary Member
This is the angle I'm coming from. Pouring more state money into the problem seems to be treating the symptoms in a very inefficient way (especially if it's also going into the bank accounts of people not struggling to pay), rather than dealing with the causes.

Next thing would be that right wingers would be complaining that taxes are too high and expenditure should be reduced. I really do not deserve a free handout of £100.
It's probably a lot cheaper to give £100 to everyone than to try to means test it.
Is it £100 for everybody or £100 per household.

Easy way to means test it is to "pay" it through HMRC. Challenge comes if it's per household (which is probably fairer) rathe rthen per person.

French have a very efficient system for such things eg different energy efficient measures qualify for different Government subsidies (even different phases of an energy efficiency project). I undertook one such. No applying, you just pay the contractor and get an invoice that includes the appropriate reference codes and submit that invoice with your tax return and the refund is applied to your tax bill and if that goes into credit they (quickly) pay you a refund.

eg Government decides it's going to give 50% subsidy on ground heat pumps. There is no limit to the national subsidy level ie not €100m and when it's goner no more claims, everybody for works that qualify gets the 50% through tax authorities.

Going through HRMC makes means testing a lot easier as they already have the income information to automate. If the mechanism is going to be used per household then maybe add an option to a tax return "Claiming household allowances for <address>" (and multiple people claiming on same address is fraud).
 

Psamathe

Legendary Member
UK energy prices are higher because there are a load of other costs included in the final bill e.g. grid costs and subsidies.
Daft thing is that renewables are given a "subsidy" that is charged to the consumer and very obvious as a part of what we pay. But hydrocarbon "subsidies" through eg tac breaks still cost us just not so obvious and not part of our energy bills. Last estimate I saw was £17bn per year. End of the day it's all our money just passing different routes and being perpetually highlighted (or kept quiet).
 
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PurplePenguin

Über Member
Here's a graph of wholesale power prices over time. Obviously it should really go in the bad graphs thread, because it doesn't really show anything, but the fact it doesn't really show anything is the point here. Wholesale prices are are much the same across northern Europe. Even France had a huge spike because so many of their nuclear reactors were not fully working.

1781009275308.png
 

Pblakeney

Squire
Here's a graph of wholesale power prices over time. Obviously it should really go in the bad graphs thread, because it doesn't really show anything, but the fact it doesn't really show anything is the point here. Wholesale prices are are much the same across northern Europe. Even France had a huge spike because so many of their nuclear reactors were not fully working.

View attachment 15685

Spain doing something right?
 

tarric

Regular
Gawd, isn't this just more populism? Give every household £100, and some more, to subsidise energy bills, at a time when we should be trying to use less energy? Something tells me that most of this money will end up in energy companies' profits anyway, given that most 'giveaways' (housing benefit, VAT reductions, etc.) don't help the people they are intended to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg49qn38ezo

The reason for this is just like most things Politicians do, it makes a good soundbite/headline and it's easy. What they should really be doing is insuring that all new houses are built to the highest energy efficiency standards possible, and that where possible old housing stock is made as energy efficient as possible.

We should be asking why we are amongst the highest energy costs in the world.
I can think of no logical reason off the top of my head although I suspect that it is to do with the pricing methodology.

That's because we still peg electric to the price of gas and for those that haven't noticed it's gone up as of late.

Screenshot (152).1.png
 
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