Church of England and Parish Council Payments - Thoughts?

[Psamathe]

Maybe views would differ depending on one's religious beliefs but I'm wondering about starting something unpopular in my Parish Council.

Small village Parish Council and it seems to be making ever more payments to the village church. Some years back the curch decided they wanted a toilet so got planning permission for a shed, toilet, etc. in the churchyard. Only ever used by churchgoers (it's a small village and everybody has a toilet at home), no signs saying it's a toilet so nobody passing through eg cyclists, walkers, etc. have any idea it's there to use (and hardly anybody passes through anyway). A year after building it they decided they wanted it but didn't want to pay for cleaning, maintaining, etc. so Parish Council took over paying running costs. Then Parish Council started paying for maintenance of the churchyard. Various other payments.

Whilst this does not represent vast amounts of money on a per person basis I feel it's wrong. Church is a charity and Parish Council are in effect making a charitable donation, taking money from parishioners through Council Tax amd deciding to pass it on to their favoured charity.

How do people feel about such compulsory charitable donations?

Ian

 

[CXRAndy]

Lots of villages and parishes have religious chancel maintenance clauses going back hundreds of years. When moving to countryside we paid a small premium to cover any chance the church would come asking for repairs/maintenance to the local church

 

[All uphill]

Maybe views would differ depending on one's religious beliefs but I'm wondering about starting something unpopular in my Parish Council.

Small village Parish Council and it seems to be making ever more payments to the village church. Some years back the curch decided they wanted a toilet so got planning permission for a shed, toilet, etc. in the churchyard. Only ever used by churchgoers (it's a small village and everybody has a toilet at home), no signs saying it's a toilet so nobody passing through eg cyclists, walkers, etc. have any idea it's there to use (and hardly anybody passes through anyway). A year after building it they decided they wanted it but didn't want to pay for cleaning, maintaining, etc. so Parish Council took over paying running costs. Then Parish Council started paying for maintenance of the churchyard. Various other payments.

Whilst this does not represent vast amounts of money on a per person basis I feel it's wrong. Church is a charity and Parish Council are in effect making a charitable donation, taking money from parishioners through Council Tax amd deciding to pass it on to their favoured charity.

How do people feel about such compulsory charitable donations?

Ian

I'd avoid village politics and stick to something more restful like cage fighting or county lines.

 

[BoldonLad]

Maybe views would differ depending on one's religious beliefs but I'm wondering about starting something unpopular in my Parish Council.

Small village Parish Council and it seems to be making ever more payments to the village church. Some years back the curch decided they wanted a toilet so got planning permission for a shed, toilet, etc. in the churchyard. Only ever used by churchgoers (it's a small village and everybody has a toilet at home), no signs saying it's a toilet so nobody passing through eg cyclists, walkers, etc. have any idea it's there to use (and hardly anybody passes through anyway). A year after building it they decided they wanted it but didn't want to pay for cleaning, maintaining, etc. so Parish Council took over paying running costs. Then Parish Council started paying for maintenance of the churchyard. Various other payments.

Whilst this does not represent vast amounts of money on a per person basis I feel it's wrong. Church is a charity and Parish Council are in effect making a charitable donation, taking money from parishioners through Council Tax amd deciding to pass it on to their favoured charity.

How do people feel about such compulsory charitable donations?

Ian

I agree 100%, the C of E and/or RC Church, etc, etc should pay their own way. but, on the assumption you live in the village, for your own well being, I would take @All Uphill’s advice, and take up a less dangerous pass time.

 

[Psamathe]

I suppose my OP was raising two questions:
1. Should I raise the issue with the Parish Council - which obviously depends on the personalities involved and there is no answer to but I suspect the answers given make sense, just maybe time for me to learn to be sensible.

Reflecting I'm also going to be pushing the Parish Council to start pushing against light pollution, particularly for new planning applications. so to start raising too many things is maybe not wise.

But 2. the broader discussion about donations to charitable institutions, compulsion, etc. My personal choice is that I'm more focused on environment, ecology, conservation and animal welfare so my charitable donations tend to be oriented more to animal stuff than human stuff. So I dislike the principle where my money can be taken as tax and passed to charities I wouldn't otherwise donate to. Government has already put in place support for registered charities so they already get taxpayer support so it seems wrong for individual local Government to decide to increase that support through the taxation system. for me even worse because the local church does nothing to help the community. Some churches organise groups supporting those in need, help homeless or food banks, etc. but my local church does nothing except hold a service once every 4 weeks and that's the extent of their efforts.

Ian

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

A government organization like an council should not pay anything to any charity.(unless it's an charity that happens to provides a service like shelter to homelessness, but then it's not a donation) They should use the funds trusted to them to provide services road maintenance and all those other things and if there is money left to donate to a charity, it means they are spending money that should go back to the taxpayer plain and simple.

 

[All uphill]

I suppose my OP was raising two questions:
1. Should I raise the issue with the Parish Council - which obviously depends on the personalities involved and there is no answer to but I suspect the answers given make sense, just maybe time for me to learn to be sensible.

Reflecting I'm also going to be pushing the Parish Council to start pushing against light pollution, particularly for new planning applications. so to start raising too many things is maybe not wise.

But 2. the broader discussion about donations to charitable institutions, compulsion, etc. My personal choice is that I'm more focused on environment, ecology, conservation and animal welfare so my charitable donations tend to be oriented more to animal stuff than human stuff. So I dislike the principle where my money can be taken as tax and passed to charities I wouldn't otherwise donate to. Government has already put in place support for registered charities so they already get taxpayer support so it seems wrong for individual local Government to decide to increase that support through the taxation system. for me even worse because the local church does nothing to help the community. Some churches organise groups supporting those in need, help homeless or food banks, etc. but my local church does nothing except hold a service once every 4 weeks and that's the extent of their efforts.

Ian

My serious answer to your thoughts is that it might be a good idea to get to know the people involved and see if there are others who share your priorities.

The village pub would be a good place to start.

 

[icowden]

Government has already put in place support for registered charities so they already get taxpayer support so it seems wrong for individual local Government to decide to increase that support through the taxation system. for me even worse because the local church does nothing to help the community. Some churches organise groups supporting those in need, help homeless or food banks, etc. but my local church does nothing except hold a service once every 4 weeks and that's the extent of their efforts.

I suspect they may do a little more than that. That said, I sort of agree with you - particularly on the basis that the Church of England is not exactly trying to scrape money together to afford the heating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_and_finances_of_the_Church_of_England

On the flip side, churches and cathedrals cost a lot to maintain and heat, and they are part of our history and heritage. Few of us would like to see them knocked down or turned into offices, but as the audience for organised religion diminishes, there is a general question mark as to what to do with many churches.

Although - as others have said - beware small village politics. You have to live there....

 

[Ian H]

And prayers?

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

In general Parish counsels are supposed to be there for the good of the Parish

But, for example, my wife was brought up to worship via some bloke in Rome so didn;t go to the same church as me - on the rare occasions that either of us bothered

so money spent on the Parish Church would be ignoring the Church she would assign herself to if she had to do so

and I have heard that some people - some of whom I have a lot of respect for - consider there to be different Gods and Other Beings

so why should they be paying fees to support a building tha tthey have no connection with - physical or spiritual

Of course - the Church is supposed to go well beyond the walls on the actual building - so if the Church can be seen to be supporting the whole community then the Parish could justify getting money from the whole community
But I am not sure that the church roof comes before the parish hall in my list of building that need money from the community for maintenance
Or the school - for that matter



just my opinion

 

[Bromptonaut]

I think the churchyard has a community function beyond those who are church attending believers and would have no objection to the Parish Council helping with the costs.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

To an extent the Parish funds being used for the church itself is OK

it is - normally anyway - a local historic building and landmark

it is just that I have heard of some villages where the Parish Council spends large amount of purely religious things in spite of the village having a large number of followed of other religions
In the old days this was OK because most people were CofE - but things change - and taxes are supposed to be for "the people" - not just "our people"

 

[BoldonLad]

To an extent the Parish funds being used for the church itself is OK

it is - normally anyway - a local historic building and landmark

it is just that I have heard of some villages where the Parish Council spends large amount of purely religious things in spite of the village having a large number of followed of other religions
In the old days this was OK because most people were CofE - but things change - and taxes are supposed to be for "the people" - not just "our people"

I posted above in agreement with the OP, but, it does occur to me, is this not a slippery slope, if we begin objecting to funding things which we, personally, don't agree with/ don't use?

 

[Psamathe]

I posted above in agreement with the OP, but, it does occur to me, is this not a slippery slope, if we begin objecting to funding things which we, personally, don't agree with/ don't use?

To me it's a question as to wether or not we live in a secular society. It then starts raising questions about eg Bishops in House of Lpords. But on a more local level I was thinking that the Church of England owns the Church & Churchyard, they are a registered charity who thus already benefit from tax breaks, so what I regard as compulsory donations are additional to support the Government has deemed appropriater (and such support is available to pretty well all religious organisations).

I would find it easier if the local church did some "good works" but all their collection goes to themselves not charitable works for those in need.

Ian

 

[BoldonLad]

To me it's a question as to wether or not we live in a secular society. It then starts raising questions about eg Bishops in House of Lpords. But on a more local level I was thinking that the Church of England owns the Church & Churchyard, they are a registered charity who thus already benefit from tax breaks, so what I regard as compulsory donations are additional to support the Government has deemed appropriater (and such support is available to pretty well all religious organisations).

I would find it easier if the local church did some "good works" but all their collection goes to themselves not charitable works for those in need.

Ian

Bishops in House of Lords, I am with you again, out with them.

Not CofE story, but, all of my in-laws are RC. Some of them quite active in Church affairs. Recently there was conversation about 2 o 3 houses, owned by “The” Church, but, surplus to requirements and standing empty. As a total non-believer, it is not really in my remit, but, I suggested… “”why not use them to house refugees or homeless?”. To me,that seemed rather an obvious suggestion, particularly for an organisation like “The” Church. But, clearly, it was not the first thing that came to their minds.