Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

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First Aspect

Senior Member
If you do away with cooling systems, you do away with their inefficiencies. There is also no incompatibility between locating the data centres in a cooler climate to reduce cooling needs, and using whatever excess heat is expelled.

Put another way, would you think it more or less energy efficient to locate a data centre in Las Vegas, or Á?
 

Ian H

Squire
If you do away with cooling systems, you do away with their inefficiencies. There is also no incompatibility between locating the data centres in a cooler climate to reduce cooling needs, and using whatever excess heat is expelled.

Put another way, would you think it more or less energy efficient to locate a data centre in Las Vegas, or Á?

I imagine that, the more remote the data centre is from any civilisation, the more tricky it would be to utilise the heat produced.
 

Pblakeney

Well-Known Member
If you do away with cooling systems, you do away with their inefficiencies. There is also no incompatibility between locating the data centres in a cooler climate to reduce cooling needs, and using whatever excess heat is expelled.

Put another way, would you think it more or less energy efficient to locate a data centre in Las Vegas, or Á?

Tricky. Where is Á?
 
Articles like this don't really help. Brings out the screaming mass of experts in the comments section. None of whom really understand.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o
it shows that letting the ''free market'' trade essential things is an great idea, and why converting solar power into liquid hydrogen which can be used to heat houses, as a power source or as car fuel isn't an bad idea.
 
it shows that letting the ''free market'' trade essential things is an great idea, and why converting solar power into liquid hydrogen which can be used to heat houses, as a power source or as car fuel isn't an bad idea.

That wouldn't be my conclusion. Those subject matters don't really come up. In any case, your latter idea doesn't work due to the following:
1. Solar generation is generally at a useful time of day when there is demand, so it is most likely going to be sold to the grid
2. No one is going to spend all the capital on an electrolyser to only use it 10% of the time as would be the case with solar
3. People tend to heat their homes in the winter whereas solar is at its peak in the summer, so you would require a vast amount of storage which isn't that straightforward. It also can't be used purely for heating and has to be mixed into gas.
4. Even if you ditch the heating idea, the people that drive the tiny number of hydrogen power cars will require year round fuel, so you still need lots of storage.
5. To make liquid hydrogen, the temperature needs to be incredibly low, so it's not really viable. Instead it needs to be turned into ammonia.
6. It's not a very efficient way of storing energy if the plan is to convert it back to electricity.

I suspect I have just been trolled, but the current thinking with hydrogen is to use it in very power intensive industries and make the hydrogen very close to the point of use. If anyone finds a cost effective way to transport it, then the sunny places in the world will all enter the game.
 

First Aspect

Senior Member
I am not sure about your comments on storage of liquid hydrogen. It's cryogenics. Not that hard. But more expensive than necessary in some contexts.

It's not energy dense though. So good for transport solutions where size and weight is less of an issue, such as shipping, possibly hgvs.

There are better ways to store excess renewables energy. Batteries, for example. Can't comment on overall efficiency, but something seems better than nothing.

The local energy market idea is problematic, because it dissuades excess local capacity. The idea of subsequently trading it relies on transmission, which means you end up with a national grid capable of that anyway.

Also, for the UK, there's a big risk it would make the parts of the country with most capacity to make good use of it uncompetitive. It's an idea, it seems to me, rooted in votes - intended to be sold as a way to make electricity cheaper.... Only it won't.

I hope Ed Minibrain doesn't get his way on that.
 
Liquid hydrogen is not economically viable rather than scientifically viable.

The original zonal/nodal idea was a Tory one as it meant not spending any money or annoying nimbys with cables. Ofgem were keen for reasons unknown, but I assumed it was sucking up to the boss and some fanciful idea that there would instantly be efficient wind turbines in London and data centres in northern Scotland. When the boss changed, I thought the whole thing would die as pragmatism took over, but then it has resurfaced.

Still, NESO are actually cracking on with the spending money, annoying nimbys and building cables, so if they all manage this correctly, they may manage to massively discourage private sector investment by introducing zonal pricing which never actually comes into financial effect, and also spend years watching the industry battle it out in court as change in law provisions kick in.
 

First Aspect

Senior Member
Liquid hydrogen is not economically viable rather than scientifically viable.

The original zonal/nodal idea was a Tory one as it meant not spending any money or annoying nimbys with cables. Ofgem were keen for reasons unknown, but I assumed it was sucking up to the boss and some fanciful idea that there would instantly be efficient wind turbines in London and data centres in northern Scotland. When the boss changed, I thought the whole thing would die as pragmatism took over, but then it has resurfaced.

Still, NESO are actually cracking on with the spending money, annoying nimbys and building cables, so if they all manage this correctly, they may manage to massively discourage private sector investment by introducing zonal pricing which never actually comes into financial effect, and also spend years watching the industry battle it out in court as change in law provisions kick in.
There will be a hydrogen economy, just not for domestic cars or the grid. It makes sense for commercial vehicles (JCBs and the like, where recharging downtime is not acceptable. and for the same reason some other commercial vehicles), and shipping possibly.

The Boris idea of using it for domestic heating was not even worth the pilot programme because leaks (it is almost as hard to contain as helium) and it's not needed for the grid. Also not needed for cars. We are just moving away from carrying a tank of explosive around so why perpetuate that?
 
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Something in between the two. There is currently 16GW of offshore wind with 8GW in construction. NESO suggest 43-50GW in their 2030 plan. No one thinks that is possible by then, but there are plenty with planning approval already, so a significant chunk will be added assuming the grid upgrade works happen (NESO has approved a load of them).

This is pipeline for offshore wind borrowed from elsewhere.

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