Digital ID: yes or no?

[briantrumpet]

The devil will be in the detail: at the moment it's being mooted that the compulsion element will be for Right To Work (RTW), so although (obviously) that would in effect be compulsory for very many people, it wouldn't be compulsory for all adults. If that were the case, I suspect it's one of those things that would become universal (and maybe universally compulsory) over time, as older generations die out.

My late godmother (b 1932) survived to the end without a mobile phone (the wired landline phone was still in the hallway) and without computer or email. I'd be very surprised if there are any of my generation in that situation, even if not tech-savvy. And I'll be even more surprised if there's anything more than a small handful of members of subsequent generations who are completely 'off-grid'.

It would be interesting to see nuanced polls of attitudes to ID cards that factor in the age of respondents. I suspect that younger people will mostly go 'meh', as they won't remember pre-internet days, or even going into libraries with books printed on paper, and card catalogues.

 

[Psamathe]

I'm assuming (possibly foolishly) that phone biometrics are pretty secure, given that Aple & Google Wallets rely on them, and it would be a worldwide issue if it wasn't secure enough.

Depends on whether or not you have biometrics enabled on your device. eg when I travel I disable biometrics and it's all PIN code entry (4 digits) and keep the screen clean and make sure one digit appears in the code twice. And on my iPhone is the biometrics faiul to ID you it reverts to its 4 digit PIN code.

So security down to 4 digits and how many people keep their screen clean enough (or dirty enough) to ensure those digits can't be identified (digits not order) and set their phone to wipe itself after number of bad PIN codes.

 

[First Aspect]

I'm not convinced.

Okay it was a couple of years ago now, but I set up facial recognition on my iPhone (work device, not my choice) and it worked every time.

It also worked when I held the phone in front of my cat.

The fingerprint sensors seem more reliable.

 

[briantrumpet]

Depends on whether or not you have biometrics enabled on your device. eg when I travel I disable biometrics and it's all PIN code entry (4 digits) and keep the screen clean and make sure one digit appears in the code twice. And on my iPhone is the biometrics faiul to ID you it reverts to its 4 digit PIN code.

So security down to 4 digits and how many people keep their screen clean enough (or dirty enough) to ensure those digits can't be identified (digits not order) and set their phone to wipe itself after number of bad PIN codes.

Fair points currently, but these are practicalities that can be solved rather than inherent arguments against adoption. I'm sure that biometrics at border crossings will have some problems, but you're not going to be able to cross borders without them in the near future. A four- or six-digit PIN won't get you though, however much you object.

 

[briantrumpet]

I'm not convinced.

Okay it was a couple of years ago now, but I set up facial recognition on my iPhone (work device, not my choice) and it worked every time.

It also worked when I held the phone in front of my cat.

The fingerprint sensors seem more reliable.

To be fair, my phone did warn me that facial recognition was less secure than fingerprint, so I've switched that off. I didn't even have a goldfish to test its reliability on though. (That's what I'm claiming, but in truth I didn't want to be told I resemble a goldfish.)

 

[briantrumpet]

FWIW, I've done fingerprints on two fingers and thumb of my RH, and thumb of the LH, and they all work reliably; if I forget and try a finger on my LH, it laughs at me and asks me to input the PIN.

 

[Psamathe]

but that's not an argument to say they might not be useful in other aspects, not least if it could be shown to be genuinely multi-purpose and more secure than paper-based tools.

Expensive and ever more authoritarian measure just because it might (or might not) be useful for something else in the furture.

If we have that money to spend I'd rather seen child poverty addressed that would be a significant benefit for society.

 

[Psamathe]

FWIW, I've done fingerprints on two fingers and thumb of my RH, and thumb of the LH, and they all work reliably; if I forget and try a finger on my LH, it laughs at me and asks me to input the PIN.

My phone only does face or PIN, no option for fingerprint. iPhone so are UK Gov. going to force Apple to redesign their phone hardware? (look at their past experience of "forcing Apple" and what a disaster that was).

 

[Pblakeney]

I'm not convinced.

Okay it was a couple of years ago now, but I set up facial recognition on my iPhone (work device, not my choice) and it worked every time.

It also worked when I held the phone in front of my cat.

The fingerprint sensors seem more reliable.

I now need to see a photo of you and your cat. 😂😉

 

[briantrumpet]

My phone only does face or PIN, no option for fingerprint. iPhone so are UK Gov. going to force Apple to redesign their phone hardware? (look at their past experience of "forcing Apple" and what a disaster that was).

Again, I think it'll be something that comes in over time, and it'll only be once biometrics are a near-universal feature of mobiles that any sort of compulsion would be considered (and maybe even then a PIN/face recognition would be accepted, with the user accepting it'll less secure.

These aren't killer arguments against adoption per se, but will need to be considered as practicalities.

 

[briantrumpet]

I now need to see a photo of you and your cat. 😂😉

Gah, you just want to steal FA's identity and live his jet-set lifestyle, canoeing on the Tamar and all.

 

[briantrumpet]

Expensive and ever more authoritarian measure just because it might (or might not) be useful for something else in the furture.

If we have that money to spend I'd rather seen child poverty addressed that would be a significant benefit for society.

That's worth arguing, even if I suspect it won't win the day, as governments of all colours tend to like shiny new tech projects more than solving poverty (and even knowing how many big IT projects fail).

 

[First Aspect]

I now need to see a photo of you and your cat. 😂😉

This is the cat in question. My hair is grey, so it failed on that measure alone.

 

[Psamathe]

Another aspect is Government IT. Starmer seems to have a very very over optomistic view of Government IT. NHS App he/Streeting keep going on about is now something of a disaster. Few weeks ago I have a vaccination booster booker at my GP and when I have appointments I use the app to double check the date/time of appointment. But NHS App wouldn't show anything so I contacted GP and they were already frustrated with the app and apparently only way to resolve was to completely remove the app and settings, wait 24 hrs then re-install and re-verify yourself, etc. That sort of worked except it no longer shows past or future appointments (which GP practice confirms it doesn't any more). I was far from the first person they'd had to instruct on this.

 

[briantrumpet]

This is the cat in question. My hair is grey, so it failed on that measure alone.

Oh, I thought it was pink and knitted. Seems like your profile picture might be of someone else.