Does anybody here take the Greens seriously?

[matticus]

It is also quite easy to be in the top, say 20% of income and top 1% of wealth and vice versa.

Why does this matter? Genuine question , as I'm not sure what you/monkers are arguing about here!

IMO big disparities in either are unhealthy for society (for one thing, big wealth makes you privileged and comfortable just as big salaries do)

 

[First Aspect]

Why does this matter? Genuine question , as I'm not sure what you/monkers are arguing about here!

IMO big disparities in either are unhealthy for society (for one thing, big wealth makes you privileged and comfortable just as big salaries do)

Well IHT taxes wealth, for one thing, whereas most political discourse seems to revolve around taking the "rich" or "wealthy" via income related taxation. I think your perspective on IHT (or other taxes, but IHT is a particularly unpopular one) would depend on who you think it targets.

 

[monkers]

Why does this matter? Genuine question , as I'm not sure what you/monkers are arguing about here!

IMO big disparities in either are unhealthy for society (for one thing, big wealth makes you privileged and comfortable just as big salaries do)

It is easy to see earnings (inc profits) and wealth as two arms on the same body. But if and when a country decides to tax those with the greatest means, then are those people going to detach one of their own limbs to escape abroad. The wealthy can move capital to another place, but not just take flight if they hoard their wealth in the form of assets, ie land and property.

 

[First Aspect]

It is easy to see earnings (inc profits) and wealth as two arms on the same body. But if and when a country decides to tax those with the greatest means, then are those people going to detach one of their own limbs to escape abroad. The wealthy can move capital to another place, but not just take flight if they hoard their wealth in the form of assets, ie land and property.

There's a fairly good argument for taxing wealth as it is accrued, somewhat like income. The problem is getting there in a just fashion, because taxing wealth after the fact unfairly impact people who haven't got the income to pay for it. One option would be to defer it until death, I suppose.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Even if that is the case (and it is obviously contested), politically it's still bold: they don't have to have a policy on everything, and one that women are obviously going to have strong and personal opinions on is likely to be problematic politically.

They could always adopt the Starmer approach and have firm, bold views on nothing.

 

[Rusty Nails]

So you will say. I don't say this to be rude, but clearly you know little about the Green Party. On the one hand they care called ''middle class champagne socialists'', and on the other ''bog snorkeling ultra lefties''.
Their economic position is a bit left of centre, and their social policies are liberal. That doesn't stop detractors from the far right groups calling them ''communists'', ''far left loons'' etc.
At the moment they are becoming more popular and not because they are ''more extreme'', but better understood, especially by working age women, who may object to being called ''a bit thick''.

It is noticeable how often there is an element of using lazy clichés as an implied insult from those on the right when referring to anyone to the left of them.

 

[Psamathe]

Well IHT taxes wealth

A good point. Of note, IHT taxes "wealth" not "the wealthy" (sadly "the wealthy" person no longer exists).

 

[Dorset Boy]

There's a fairly good argument for taxing wealth as it is accrued, somewhat like income. The problem is getting there in a just fashion, because taxing wealth after the fact unfairly impact people who haven't got the income to pay for it. One option would be to defer it until death, I suppose.

The is an element of taxing wealth as it grows through taxes such as Capital Gains Tax. However for CGT to apply, a gain has to have been realised.

 

[BoldonLad]

The is an element of taxing wealth as it grows through taxes such as Capital Gains Tax. However for CGT to apply, a gain has to have been realised.

Isn’t that because, until a gain is “realised” there is no gain?

 

[icowden]

The is an element of taxing wealth as it grows through taxes such as Capital Gains Tax. However for CGT to apply, a gain has to have been realised.

And most gains are realised offshore through a tax haven to soften the realisation...

 

[Dorset Boy]

And most gains are realised offshore through a tax haven to soften the realisation...

Utter nonsense, sorry.

 

[icowden]

Utter nonsense, sorry.

The real world disagrees with you:

The super-rich in the UK avoid billions in tax annually, largely through legal, structural mechanisms rather than just illegal evasion. Key methods include utilizing lower capital gains tax (CGT) rates (18-24% vs up to 45% income tax), offshore accounts, and Business Asset Disposal Relief. While HMRC estimated the total "wealthy" tax gap at £1.9bn, other reports suggest tax avoidance via offshore schemes alone costs over £12.5bn annually

Common strategies used by the super-rich​

We put the spotlight on seven typical forms of income and wealth for the richest that are often not taxed or undertaxed in most or all countries:

1. Dividends, that is the money that shareholders of a company receive regularly out of the profits of the company. The tax rate on dividend in the OECD countries dropped from 60.8 in 1980 to 41.7 recently. (You can find the methods we used to obtain this and other numbers here.)
2. Capital gains, that is the increase in value of an asset when it is sold. Capital gains are more unequally distributed than income and wealth. This is even true in one of the most equal countries in the world, Denmark, where the richest 1% receive more than half of all capital gains. Oxfam's analysis of 123 countries shows that one in five countries do not tax capital gains, and that the average tax rate on capital gains is only 18%. Our research found only three countries that tax capital income more than work income.
3. Unrealised capital gain, that is the increase in value of an asset before it is sold. Unrealised capital gains are generally not taxed and this allows rich people to accrue value from their assets without having to pay tax on it. Moreover, assets (financial, property, etc.) can be used as collateral to raise loans. Therefore, even if they are "unrealised", these gains can in practice be turned into real money for the wealthiest and contribute to growing their fortunes further.

 

[BoldonLad]

And most gains are realised offshore through a tax haven to soften the realisation...

Is that "most gains" as in the number of individual gains (of whatever amount), or, the total value of gains?

 

[Dorset Boy]

The real world disagrees with you:

You said "most gains are realised offshore through a tax haven to soften the realisation".
That is nonsense as many people pay UK CGT.
There are of course solutions using offshore havens, but if you want to repatriate the money you will get hit for tax.
Also should you pay UK tax on investments whilst they are held offshore?
There is huge ignorance around offshore investing and what it really means. You can try to argue that they should not have low tax rates but every country offers different tax rates.

 

[icowden]

You said "most gains are realised offshore through a tax haven to soften the realisation".
That is nonsense as many people pay UK CGT.

I didn't mean "most" in terms of people, I meant most in terms of £

There are of course solutions using offshore havens, but if you want to repatriate the money you will get hit for tax.

Oh so that's OK then.

Also should you pay UK tax on investments whilst they are held offshore?

Er... yes?

There is huge ignorance around offshore investing and what it really means. You can try to argue that they should not have low tax rates but every country offers different tax rates.

True. I think many people would feel that if you have citizenship of a country that you should pay your fair share of tax rather than moving to Monaco.