Does anybody here take the Greens seriously?

[Psamathe]

I guess Liz Truss would equally have liked to have ignored the bond markets.

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Maybe more of a balance. I think it has gone a bit OTT where incumbent Chancellors are making out we can't change the Chancellor 'cos it might upset the bond markets.

The issue Ms Truss caused with the bond markets is that she excluded the OBR so her projections were considered "unreliable". I suspect the easy answer to settle the Bond Markets and become less "in hock" to them would be to make OBR assessment and the "fiscal rules" covered by law such that any changes would require Parliamentary debate, etc. But Chancellors don't want to do that as it would make it easier to change them without spooking the markets.

 

[Shortfall]

I guess Liz Truss would equally have liked to have ignored the bond markets.

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Fine, who else is he going to borrow the money from? I've heard people like Richard J Murphy and other MMT
proponents suggesting that the government can just create the money it needs to finance it's spending but I haven't heard a convincing explanation why that doesn't end in hyper inflation as it did in Zimbabwe, Arentina and the Weimar Republic. He suggests that taxes and interest rates provide a brake on this but I'm not convinced that this isn't just the equivalent of a perpetual motion machine. Perhaps Zack can elaborate when he isn't tit whispering?

 

[Beebo]

Keynesian economics with borrowing to spend on infrastructure has a place. And is unlikely to scare the bond markets too much if you pre warn them.
But Truss was borrowing to fund tax cuts for the 45%ers.
My friend who earns £350k+ was looking at an extra &1k+ a month take home in his take home pay just from her budget. And that simply didn’t seem fair.
Even he was surprised by her generosity.

 

[briantrumpet]

Fine, who else is he going to borrow the money from? I've heard people like Richard J Murphy and other MMT
proponents suggesting that the government can just create the money it needs to finance it's spending but I haven't heard a convincing explanation why that doesn't end in hyper inflation as it did in Zimbabwe, Arentina and the Weimar Republic. He suggests that taxes and interest rates provide a brake on this but I'm not convinced that this isn't just the equivalent of a perpetual motion machine. Perhaps Zack can elaborate when he isn't tit whispering?

That's the point: it didn't work for her, and it wouldn't work any better for the Greens. As far as I can see it's yet another simplistic 'solution' to a really difficult/complex problem, and one that doesn't bear too much scrutiny. More populism.

I genuinely can't remember the last time the Greens under ZP really highlighted a policy that addressed environmental policy. I don't know why they are doing this non-Green populism this far out from a general election.

 

[Ian H]

Keynesian economics with borrowing to spend on infrastructure has a place. And is unlikely to scare the bond markets too much if you pre warn them.
But Truss was borrowing to fund tax cuts for the 45%ers.
My friend who earns £350k+ was looking at an extra &1k+ a month take home in his take home pay just from her budget. And that simply didn’t seem fair.
Even he was surprised by her generosity.

That is the point: it matters what you spend the borrowed money on, as Keynes, Roosevelt et al would tell you.

 

[briantrumpet]

That is the point: it matters what you spend the borrowed money on, as Keynes, Roosevelt et al would tell you.

Bikes? 🤔

 

[briantrumpet]

My worry is that Polanski is single-handedly leading the Greens down a dead end of non-Green populism, attracting all the disaffected Corbyn folk with their associated problems, and although each of Polanski's fibs are minor (nowhere near Farage's corruption), they all are adding up to tarnish what was an idealistic movement with a reasonably clear agenda, and we'll end up with something that has no raison d'être other than getting elected to do... well, I'm not sure now.

 

[Ian H]

Bikes? 🤔

Infrastructure, capital projects - things that make the economy more efficient, which have the effect of lowering the effective cost of borrowing.

 

[briantrumpet]

Infrastructure, capital projects - things that make the economy more efficient, which have the effect of lowering the effective cost of borrowing.

Sorry, missed a 😉

😉

 

[Ian H]

Sorry, missed a 😉

😉

I was just spoiling the joke.

 

[briantrumpet]

I was just spoiling the joke.

No sense of humour, you. Who'd do such a thing?

 

[Shortfall]

Infrastructure, capital projects - things that make the economy more efficient, which have the effect of lowering the effective cost of borrowing.

Yeah because we're great at that. HS2 must have brought our borrowing right down.

 

[Ian H]

Yeah because we're great at that. HS2 must have brought our borrowing right down.

Well obviously you wouldn't trust the Tories to do it properly.

 

[Shortfall]

Well obviously you wouldn't trust the Tories to do it properly.

I don't think it's limited to one particular party or one particular reason. I understand the principle of Keynsian economics but whether it's our archaic planning system, the plethora of Quangos and bureaucracy or the paucity of talent across the political field we don't seem to be able to deliver big infrastructure on time and on budget anymore.

 

[briantrumpet]

I don't think it's limited to one particular party or one particular reason. I understand the principle of Keynsian economics but whether it's our archaic planning system, the plethora of Quangos and bureaucracy or the paucity of talent across the political field we don't seem to be able to deliver big infrastructure on time and on budget anymore.

At the risk of boosterism, I suspect/hope that HS2 is a headline-grabbing outlier (for deserved reasons) in terms of budgetary/management failure, and will eclipse all less headline-grabbing middling schemes that just get done roughly on time and on budget. It's the nature of the news that the bulk of stuff that isn't a failure just gets a little mention in the local press, and it's only the complete fuck-ups on mega projects that sell papers and clicks.

@Pross might have a better overview of the general situation.