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AuroraSaab
Epic Member
Is anybody who believes the current state of Israel has a right to exist a zionist?
monkers
Pharaoh
Actually I posted a link to an older Jewish man speaking from Green Party conference. He was exceptionally lucid and eloquent about the problem.
I'll risk being absurdly reductionist of what he had to say. Condensed to a word it might be this ...'propaganda'. There are older members of the Jewish community outside of Israel that seem to be most vocal about how dismayed they are, to the point that some have been heard to say ''Hitler was right''.
The power of propaganda, fear mongering, and inducing a moral panic should not be overlooked. I'm somebody born in Surrey in England, but effectively forced from the country I thought of as my home. I'm fortunate in so much as my parents are both Irish (both awful as parents but that is by the by), and I lived in Ireland for some of my teenage years. My first and present passports are Irish. Also I have been fortunate to inherit. I have been effectively displaced from the UK. This is not the thread for me to develop that point, but as somebody who has experienced the effects of propaganda first hand, first through Brexit, and then secondly more personally through identity propaganda, I now see the UK in the grip of a third wave - a confluence of propaganda against asylum seekers, Jewish and Muslim people, and even cyclists too.
I do spend time in Ireland and have a place to call home there - so I can offer you the Irish opinion from those I know. A summary in paraphrase ...
''The UK has turned from being peasants to foolishly imperial and pompous pricks to fecking schizophrenic knuckle draggers singing Land of Hope and Glory despite knowing they are in neither state. Instead they are vainglorious and hopeless. We always thought them well above their station in the world. They thought they were the most military superior, they thought they held a forever empire, they thought they could reshape the world after WW1 and again after WW2, they thought they could call the shots in Europe, they now think they can ignore the international law and order they imposed on much of the world in their grandiose image in a foolish belief they remain superior. They now call themselves ''The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland''. People who live there call themselves, English, or Scottish, or Welsh, even Irish. Their passports declare them British.
They think that the sovereign state of the Republic of Ireland that sits in a sea both we and they call the Irish Sea remains in the ''British Isles''.
They thought they could partition the Island of Ireland again with a land border by holding a referendum to leave the EU. They think we Irish are thick, but then they thought they could put a border down a sea that they don't recognise as their own. Then they wonder how Northern Ireland remains a territory under EU jurisdiction.
Their parliament declares the UK a functional democracy - it doesn't even have a constitution and still has an unelected chamber calling themselves 'Lords'. Their parliament no longer functions to protect the human rights of its own citizens instead rounding up pensioners and declaring them 'terrorists' for expressing an opinion that conforms with the global rules-based order judgments.
No wonder the useless bastards don't even know who they are!''
I've yet to hear how they feel about a former Attorney General and Home Secretary arguing that being born in England does not make her English because she is not white, but being born in 'Britain' does make her 'British' despite not being white.
Opinions on the latter may vary, but I am here to hear them.
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bobzmyunkle
Guru
Not sure adopting this will make the Greens more electable, and it probably won't help Zac in Holborn, but why would anyone disagree with the motion itself.
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...21/Green+Party+Motion+A105+-+Inc+A5+amend.pdf
Zionism is a political ideology which called for the creation – and, now it exists, the continuity – of an ethnonationalist Jewish State in historic Palestine to the exclusion and/or domination of the non-Jewish population. The real, material manifestation of Zionism has been the historic and ongoing dehumanisation, displacement, dispossession, disenfranchisement and destruction of Palestinians. This is based upon European settler-colonial systems of domination and oppression, which has also created racial hierarchies between Jews of different ethnicities in Palestine. The practice of Zionist ideology, promoting ethnonationalism, privileges one ethnic group on the basis of the subjugation of others. Zionism is Israel's foundational ideology. Zionism has created and seeks to maintain – and where possible – expand, an apartheid regime between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, designed to cement the supremacy of one group, Jews, over another, Palestinians. As such, Zionism is racist. This motion is aimed at the political ideology and practice of Zionism, as defined, and not at the religious or ethnic background of those who may identify as Zionists. Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. Rejecting Zionism and supporting the liberation of the Palestinian people is not discriminatory against Jewish people. Nor is it discriminatory to support the establishment of a single democratic Palestinian State between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea with equal rights for all. Zionism is fundamentally incompatible with anti-racist principles, equality and justice.
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...21/Green+Party+Motion+A105+-+Inc+A5+amend.pdf
Zionism is a political ideology which called for the creation – and, now it exists, the continuity – of an ethnonationalist Jewish State in historic Palestine to the exclusion and/or domination of the non-Jewish population. The real, material manifestation of Zionism has been the historic and ongoing dehumanisation, displacement, dispossession, disenfranchisement and destruction of Palestinians. This is based upon European settler-colonial systems of domination and oppression, which has also created racial hierarchies between Jews of different ethnicities in Palestine. The practice of Zionist ideology, promoting ethnonationalism, privileges one ethnic group on the basis of the subjugation of others. Zionism is Israel's foundational ideology. Zionism has created and seeks to maintain – and where possible – expand, an apartheid regime between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, designed to cement the supremacy of one group, Jews, over another, Palestinians. As such, Zionism is racist. This motion is aimed at the political ideology and practice of Zionism, as defined, and not at the religious or ethnic background of those who may identify as Zionists. Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. Rejecting Zionism and supporting the liberation of the Palestinian people is not discriminatory against Jewish people. Nor is it discriminatory to support the establishment of a single democratic Palestinian State between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea with equal rights for all. Zionism is fundamentally incompatible with anti-racist principles, equality and justice.
First Aspect
Squire
Even if more narrowly defined by their own party's internal lexicon that no one else seems to use as *political* zionism (which is not what the actual resolution says, four words being too many it seems), I'm not even sure it correctly defines anything other than the current extreme right wing governing coalition.
In overview, it appears not to be possible after all to summarise a complex millenia old geopolitical problem into 3 words.
Who knew.
In overview, it appears not to be possible after all to summarise a complex millenia old geopolitical problem into 3 words.
Who knew.
Psamathe
Squire
Some years back (1975) but UN thought similar. From UN Resolution 3379 https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-181963/
Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.
AuroraSaab
Epic Member
What is that statement other than a call for the abolition of the state of Israel? And an announcement that anyone who believes Israel should continue to exist (in any form) is a zionist and a racist? That's going to include a lot of Green Party members and a lot of the general public. Still, it's good that the Greens are setting out their stall so early. People will know what they're voting for come the General Election.
bobzmyunkle
Guru
It's proposing a single democratic state. (You could argue that it was an error to be prescriptive).
Is there a version of Israel you'd like to defend?
AuroraSaab
Epic Member
I favour a 2 state solution. I think anything else (at the moment) is unworkable. As I've said previously though, no progress will be made until Hamas and Netanyahu are both gone.
Psamathe
Squire
My (maybe incorrect) understanding is that at least some forms of modern Zionism consider that "Israel" includes Judea and Samaria, land they believe was granted to them by God.
So I don't see it as an absolute. I don't think Israel has the right to all those lands (certainly some) Zionists claim but at the same time I'm not in any way suggesting the abolition of the State of Israel.
I think those claiming Judea and Samaria are declaring that those lands are Israel and deny the Israeli right to those lands is denying the right for Israel to exist which is certainly not the case ie deny part of their claimed land is equivalent to denying the entirety of the land which is a daft argument.
Or maybe I've just misunderstood everything.
AuroraSaab
Epic Member
This is why I asked a question the other day. Are you a zionist if you think the state of Israel as an entity (leaving aside specific borders) has a right to exist? If so - which is how the Greens statement reads to me - that makes a lot of people racist zionists, including Clinton and Obama.
Psamathe
Squire
My impression is that the borders are very relevant as that is what seems to be driving the treatment of those suffering the alleged racism.
My understanding is there are a wide range of forms of Zionism but common to all is a self-determining Jewish State in the Land of Israel's ancestral home. Hence what is considered the "ancestral home" becomes very relevant and to me appears the driving factor in the discriminatory treatment of some ethnic groups.
bobzmyunkle
Guru
Maybe some folks on here could read up on the history of Israel.
Well the Israelis have rejected a 2 state solution, so that's unworkable even if it appears to be the preferred solution of some Palestinians.
Are you suggesting a 2 state solution would be based on the '67 borders? I'd like to know how you see the Zionists* accepting that. Or maybe the current borders, wherever they are?
*Political Zionists obviously.
Well the Israelis have rejected a 2 state solution, so that's unworkable even if it appears to be the preferred solution of some Palestinians.
Are you suggesting a 2 state solution would be based on the '67 borders? I'd like to know how you see the Zionists* accepting that. Or maybe the current borders, wherever they are?
*Political Zionists obviously.
AuroraSaab
Epic Member
The current Israeli government has rejected it. It's a proposition that has had wide support within and outside Israel in the past. Is it less workable than disassembling the state of Israel and creating a 'from the river to the sea' nation in which everybody, miraculously, lives happily side by side?
bobzmyunkle
Guru
I think you'll find the US plays quite a part also. Then you can check out the US Christian Zionists.
