Does anybody here take the Greens seriously?

[Psamathe]

It's impossible to have a fruitful debate where the central terminology doesn't have an agreed definition. The problem here specifically is that there are two broad definitions, where one of them says that all Zionism is racist (e.g. Green Party motion), and the other (see Behr, Aaronovitch & Sugarman) says that Zionism includes racism.

Maybe the Green Party new policy has been counter productive (and always was going to be counter productive) in that it has moved the discussions to be about definition of terms, exceptions to classifications, etc. rather than focusing on the plight of the Palestiniane in Gaza and the West Bank and adopting policies to help then and establish some long term peace.

Whatever the right or wrong of the policy, ill thought out and focusing of political games rather than achieving anything.

 

[Psamathe]

It's clearly defined in Der Judenstaat.

Yet maybe some would argue that some Zionists have changed their stance since 1896, debatable but many the most important aspect is that people are spending their time discussing the meaning of terms rather than focusing on the plights of the Palestinian people and establishing peace in the region.

 

[AndyRM]

Yet maybe some would argue that some Zionists have changed their stance since 1896, debatable but many the most important aspect is that people are spending their time discussing the meaning of terms rather than focusing on the plights of the Palestinian people and establishing peace in the region.

It's literally the guideline for hardline Zionists.

 

[briantrumpet]

It's clearly defined in Der Judenstaat.

It doesn't sound that clearly defined as inherently racist from these:

https://fiveable.me/history-middle-east-since-1800/key-terms/der-judenstaat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Judenstaat

And I asked Gemini whether it was

And then I asked if the definition of Zionism has evolved (and here's where it seems to get more complicated, as reflected by the journalists I've linked articles from)

None of this is an apology for racism, obviously, or for excusing the horrors in Gaza.

 

[Psamathe]

Yet maybe some would argue that some Zionists have changed their stance since 1896, debatable but many the most important aspect is that people are spending their time discussing the meaning of terms rather than focusing on the plights of the Palestinian people and establishing peace in the region.

It's literally the guideline for hardline Zionists.

Did the Green Party policy state they were refering to "Hardline Zionists"? or was is much broader (my understanding is that there are a fair number of types of Zionism eg Proto-Zionism, Political Zionism, Practical Zionism, Labor Zionism, General and Liberal Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, Religious Zionism, Cultural Zionism, Revolutionary Zionism, Reform Zionism, Secular Zionism, Christian Zionism, Post-Zionism, Neo-Zionism, Federal Zionism, Green Zionism (from Wikipedia, other categorisations are available).

And whilst people discuss the meaning of Zionism (after the Green Party's contribution) Palestinians continue to die, to be attacked and atrocities committed eg yesterday

Israeli settlers beat press photographer as soldiers watch in West Bank​

Armed Israeli settlers beat a photographer in the presence of Israeli soldiers, hospitalising him, as he covered worsening settler violence against olive farmers in the occupied West Bank.

Jaafar Ashtiyeh, a 58-year-old veteran photographer for Agence France-Presse in Palestine, was assaulted by a group of settlers, who beat him with the butts of their rifles, despite him being marked as press. He was assaulted in view of about a dozen armed Israeli soldiers.

Ashtiyeh suffered bruises to his head and torso and was taken to hospital, according to witnesses, his family and fellow journalists.

His assault came amid a worsening wave of Israeli settler violence in the West Bank. Every year, settlers attack Palestinian farmers trying to harvest their olives – an economic lifeline for the beleaguered Palestinian economy – with few legal consequences.

Still, thanks to the Green Party activists people might be more aware of the definitions of words.

 

[briantrumpet]

Apart from anything else, Behr came up with an amusing description of Polanski.

 

[First Aspect]

Apart from anything else, Behr came up with an amusing description of Polanski.

View attachment 17628

Doesn't really.chime with me. It misses the key problem with him. Well one of them. Which is when the audience is not on his side, he is either aggressive, or makes stuff up.

 

[the snail]

Is anybody who believes the current state of Israel has a right to exist a zionist?

There is no right for Israel,or any other state to exist. IMO,Israel in it's current state should not exist,just as apartheid SA,Nazi Germany didn't have a right to exist.

 

[monkers]

Did the Green Party policy state they were refering to "Hardline Zionists"? or was is much broader (my understanding is that there are a fair number of types of Zionism eg Proto-Zionism, Political Zionism, Practical Zionism, Labor Zionism, General and Liberal Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, Religious Zionism, Cultural Zionism, Revolutionary Zionism, Reform Zionism, Secular Zionism, Christian Zionism, Post-Zionism, Neo-Zionism, Federal Zionism, Green Zionism (from Wikipedia, other categorisations are available).

And whilst people discuss the meaning of Zionism (after the Green Party's contribution) Palestinians continue to die, to be attacked and atrocities committed eg yesterday

Still, thanks to the Green Party activists people might be more aware of the definitions of words.

It depends on which views from the Jewish community you choose to believe. It is a Jewish problem in that Jews do not agree.

One version of Zionism is that Israel was from the outset to be a resort for wealthy Jews. They point to Jews who were considered too old, not able-bodied enough, sick, or poor who were not given permission to relocate. It is said that the 'safe haven' narrative was always fake - that the UK was convinced by false narrative.

I posted earlier about propaganda - it's a significant point not to be overlooked.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There is no right for Israel,or any other state to exist. IMO,Israel in it's current state should not exist,just as apartheid SA,Nazi Germany didn't have a right to exist.

Given that it's here now I meant the current state, in principle existing (ignoring arguments about what its specific borders should be). Many, many countries were created by artifical creation of borders or by conquest. Very few arose organically (such as islands that managed not to be invaded for example). There would be quite a number of countries to add to your list, including many in the middle East.

 

[First Aspect]

There is no right for Israel,or any other state to exist. IMO,Israel in it's current state should not exist,just as apartheid SA,Nazi Germany didn't have a right to exist.

What about Ukraine?

 

[the snail]

What about Ukraine?

The people of Ukraine have a right to self determination. If they exercise their free will and decide to become part of Russia,then Ukraine would no longer exist. That doesn't mean Russia has a right to attack them.

 

[monkers]

The people of Ukraine have a right to self determination. If they exercise their free will and decide to become part of Russia,then Ukraine would no longer exist. That doesn't mean Russia has a right to attack them.

Spot on.

 

[AndyRM]

The people of Ukraine have a right to self determination. If they exercise their free will and decide to become part of Russia,then Ukraine would no longer exist. That doesn't mean Russia has a right to attack them.

If Ukraine decides to become part of Russia I will eat one of my organs.

 

[briantrumpet]

Anyway, at least solar power is something that the Greens can agree on.