Donald I, emperor of the world.

[midlandsgrimpeur]

This is worth a read, scary but gives an insight into Karp.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...alex-karp-of-palantir-the-worlds-scariest-ceo

 

[Pinno718]

This is worth a read, scary but gives an insight into Karp.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...alex-karp-of-palantir-the-worlds-scariest-ceo

egad.

 

[Pinno718]

This isn't a trick question, as we have different views politically, I would be genuinely interested to hear the ways in which you feel we are having our rights removed and how labour are destroying the economy?

I have repeatedly stated that as a Labour supporter I am more than a little disappointed in Starmer and Labours performance so far, but that is largely because I view them as (ideologically speaking) chasing voters on the right and constantly issuing rhetoric on issues such as immigration which is not in line with a general progressive left view.

However, on the two issues you raise I would disagree, they have taken some concrete steps so far.

Our rights
Introduced the employment rights bill. This plans to introduce a whole raft of workers rights; stronger protections around sexual harassment and unfair dismissal, improved SSP, better flexible working, crackdown on zero hours etc.

Restored NHS funding to highest levels since 2010

Introduced the Renters Rights Bill to offer better protection to renters
.
Introduced Water special measures bill. Not a massive first step but at least starting to hold water companies to account and better protect us as consumers and the environment.

Ending 2 child benefit cap will lift half a million kids out of poverty, increasing the living conditions of some of the poorest families. I would argue this improves people's rights and protections.

Introduced new measures to Police to better address violence against women and girls.


The economy

OBR projected growth is 1% annually

Real GDP growth is expected to be around 1.4% in 2025, up from 1.1% in 2024. Nominal GDP is estimated at 2.2% higher than predicted in Qtr 2 of this year. Admittedly one of the main challenges is that growth is being taken up by public sector and not private sector which is also driven by net migration. There would have to be a transition back to private growth but as Labour have decided to continue to enact right wing policies on migration this will not be helped.

Real disposable incomes fell by 0.7% in Qtr 1 of this year which has an obvious impact of household consumption, driving it down as people look to save more and spend less, fuelled by better savings rates. However, inflation has likely peaked and projections are that it will gradually fall from early 2026, aligned with a medium term increase in productivity. This would allow for real wage growth. The IFS predicts this would see household consumption grow 1.4% between 2027-31 and the OBR forecasts private consumption to grow 1.6% over the next five years.

As inflation eases we should also start to see real terms growth in business investment and the trend for higher unemployment to reverse.

The IMF projects UK fiscal balance to increase by 2.2% of GDP, compared with an average of 0.3% in other advanced economies. We would still be a net borrower over the next five years, but are predicted to be around 1% lower than comparable economies.

I am not going to pretend it is all rosy, lots of significant challenges ahead but there is also some slow and steady work being done to try and shift the momentum. The idea that Labour are destroying the economy doesn't seem to really stack up.

Well that certainly paints a different picture.
Anyone would think the main stream press was pushing a right wing agenda full of mis-information.
Erm... hang on...

Even our so called impartial BBC has some internal characters that really do not espouse that virtue and as Tania Smith pointed out, the number of references within a time period to Fagash and Reform (5 seats) was astonishing with no mentions in this same time period of the Lib Dems (79 seats).

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

Well that certainly paints a different picture.
Anyone would think the main stream press was pushing a right wing agenda full of mis-information.
Erm... hang on...

Even our so called impartial BBC has some internal characters that really do not espouse that virtue and as Tania Smith pointed out, the number of references within a time period to Fagash and Reform (5 seats) was astonishing with no mentions in this same time period of the Lib Dems (79 seats).

This is the big issue, politics has become purely tribal, like Football. Lots of people now just view it that if you are not on 'my side' I am just going to slag you off. No doubt a large part has been the agenda setting of certain politicians and the media but we as the public have also allowed them to get away with it.

We should be able to have a balanced and rational discussion based on facts and analysis. I am happy to admit Reeves and Labour have got things wrong on the economy so far, but they have also got things right and they are certainly not trying to deliberately crash the bloody economy. Anyone on the right looking at it in a considered manner should be able to draw the same conclusions.

 

[Pinno718]

This is the big issue, politics has become purely tribal, like Football. Lots of people now just view it that if you are not on 'my side' I am just going to slag you off. No doubt a large part has been the agenda setting of certain politicians and the media but we as the public have also allowed them to get away with it.

We should be able to have a balanced and rational discussion based on facts and analysis. I am happy to admit Reeves and Labour have got things wrong on the economy so far, but they have also got things right and they are certainly not trying to deliberately crash the bloody economy. Anyone on the right looking at it in a considered manner should be able to draw the same conclusions.

Ya think the Daily Heil/BBC/ITV would present the pro's and the cons like wot u said?
Even Pesky Peston is just another headline creating drama queen. The positives are omitted and the electorate are intrenched. It makes for a heady mix of hedonism and 2 dimensional debate.
Most people would rather die before they think. Most people do. Or something like that.

@Shortfall may just crawl out from under his stone today as it's raining heavily and respond. He needs help like a care in the rubble package. Perhaps he should paint his walls a nice shade of green and grow flowers.

 

[Shortfall]

Pretty sure there's a lot of posts in gthose 900 pages that deflect criticism, or claim that the criticism isn't really meritted or is irrelevant.

This.

 

[Dorset Boy]

Ya think the Daily Heil/BBC/ITV would present the pro's and the cons like wot u said?
Even Pesky Peston is just another headline creating drama queen. The positives are omitted and the electorate are intrenched. It makes for a heady mix of hedonism and 2 dimensional debate.
Most people would rather die before they think. Most people do. Or something like that.

@Shortfall may just crawl out from under his stone today as it's raining heavily and respond. He needs help like a care in the rubble package. Perhaps he should paint his walls a nice shade of green and grow flowers.

Very condescending last paragraph that belittles you.

 

[AndyRM]

There was only one rabidly pro Labour/Starmer member on this forum, and he was gone before the BR influx...

Nobody is sticking up for Labour/Starmer, or trying to deflect away from their failings, that I can see anyway.

 

[Dorset Boy]

This is the big issue, politics has become purely tribal, like Football. Lots of people now just view it that if you are not on 'my side' I am just going to slag you off. No doubt a large part has been the agenda setting of certain politicians and the media but we as the public have also allowed them to get away with it.

We should be able to have a balanced and rational discussion based on facts and analysis. I am happy to admit Reeves and Labour have got things wrong on the economy so far, but they have also got things right and they are certainly not trying to deliberately crash the bloody economy. Anyone on the right looking at it in a considered manner should be able to draw the same conclusions.

I don't think any politician (of any hue) deliberately sets out to crash the economy.
However, there are a range of views on how the economy should be run.
Like any government, Labour have done, and will continue to do some good things, and some utterly dumb things.

However, given last year growth was the key word (and should be the key objective), Labour have failed on thast measure with the projections having all been downgraded over recent months.
Hitting employers hard for additional NI and freezing the personal allowance and tax bands are not ways to stimulate an economy.

This discussion is all onthe wrong thread mind!

 

[matticus]

Pretty sure there's a lot of posts in gthose 900 pages that deflect criticism, or claim that the criticism isn't really meritted or is irrelevant.

Please be accurate. What i think I wrote was:
Why are you moaning about our slightly ropey government when DONALD TRUMP IS RUNNING THE USA?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Shortfall]

This isn't a trick question, as we have different views politically, I would be genuinely interested to hear the ways in which you feel we are having our rights removed and how labour are destroying the economy?

I have repeatedly stated that as a Labour supporter I am more than a little disappointed in Starmer and Labours performance so far, but that is largely because I view them as (ideologically speaking) chasing voters on the right and constantly issuing rhetoric on issues such as immigration which is not in line with a general progressive left view.

However, on the two issues you raise I would disagree, they have taken some concrete steps so far.

Our rights
Introduced the employment rights bill. This plans to introduce a whole raft of workers rights; stronger protections around sexual harassment and unfair dismissal, improved SSP, better flexible working, crackdown on zero hours etc.

Restored NHS funding to highest levels since 2010

Introduced the Renters Rights Bill to offer better protection to renters
.
Introduced Water special measures bill. Not a massive first step but at least starting to hold water companies to account and better protect us as consumers and the environment.

Ending 2 child benefit cap will lift half a million kids out of poverty, increasing the living conditions of some of the poorest families. I would argue this improves people's rights and protections.

Introduced new measures to Police to better address violence against women and girls.


The economy

OBR projected growth is 1% annually

Real GDP growth is expected to be around 1.4% in 2025, up from 1.1% in 2024. Nominal GDP is estimated at 2.2% higher than predicted in Qtr 2 of this year. Admittedly one of the main challenges is that growth is being taken up by public sector and not private sector which is also driven by net migration. There would have to be a transition back to private growth but as Labour have decided to continue to enact right wing policies on migration this will not be helped.

Real disposable incomes fell by 0.7% in Qtr 1 of this year which has an obvious impact of household consumption, driving it down as people look to save more and spend less, fuelled by better savings rates. However, inflation has likely peaked and projections are that it will gradually fall from early 2026, aligned with a medium term increase in productivity. This would allow for real wage growth. The IFS predicts this would see household consumption grow 1.4% between 2027-31 and the OBR forecasts private consumption to grow 1.6% over the next five years.

As inflation eases we should also start to see real terms growth in business investment and the trend for higher unemployment to reverse.

The IMF projects UK fiscal balance to increase by 2.2% of GDP, compared with an average of 0.3% in other advanced economies. We would still be a net borrower over the next five years, but are predicted to be around 1% lower than comparable economies.

I am not going to pretend it is all rosy, lots of significant challenges ahead but there is also some slow and steady work being done to try and shift the momentum. The idea that Labour are destroying the economy doesn't seem to really stack up.

The workers and renters rights legislation might be well meaning but if it results in fewer jobs because employers find it too expensive to employ workers and fewer houses available for rent because private landlords just give up, then you can have all the rights you want but you won't have a house or a job. The rights that are being removed are the limiting of jury trials and the proposed introduction of ID cards. Some people will doubtless see both as a simple exercise in making things cheaper and more efficient but frankly they're being naiive. The growth figures you quote are optimistic at best and are likely to be revised down. The extra money you say that is being given to the NHS isnt spent efficiently and patient outcomes and experience are significantly worse than in similar advanced and comparable countries with different methods of provision. My feeling is that we're in absolutely terrible financial straits. Everything points to a huge financial collapse, a bloodbath in employment, civil unrest and a collapse of the government followed by years of instability. I am happy to return to this topic in future months/years and admit it if I'm wrong. As it happens I hope you're right but I have grave doubts.

 

[Shortfall]

Very condescending last paragraph that belittles you.

To be fair you're giving him too much credit.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Everything points to a huge financial collapse, a bloodbath in employment, civil unrest and a collapse.of the government followed by years of instability.

A ‘huge financial collapse’ and what follows will be caused by factors outside the control of this small island, and we will just be caught up in it.

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

I don't think any politician (of any hue) deliberately sets out to crash the economy.
However, there are a range of views on how the economy should be run.
Like any government, Labour have done, and will continue to do some good things, and some utterly dumb things.

However, given last year growth was the key word (and should be the key objective), Labour have failed on thast measure with the projections having all been downgraded over recent months.
Hitting employers hard for additional NI and freezing the personal allowance and tax bands are not ways to stimulate an economy.

This discussion is all onthe wrong thread mind!

Fair and more of what we need, differing viewpoints but some balance and healthy discussion, even if there is disagreement. (talking about what is needed in the media and the public at large by the way).

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

The workers and renters rights legislation might be well meaning but if it results in fewer jobs because employers find it too expensive to employ workers and fewer houses available for rent because private landlords just give up, then you can have all the rights you want but you won't have a house or a job. The rights that are being removed are the limiting of jury trials and the proposed introduction of ID cards. Some people will doubtless see both as a simple exercise in making things cheaper and more efficient but frankly they're being naiive. The growth figures you quote are optimistic at best and are likely to be revised down. The extra money you say that is being given to the NHS isnt spent efficiently and patient outcomes and experience are significantly worse than in similar advanced and comparable countries with different methods of provision. My feeling is that we're in absolutely terrible financial straits. Everything points to a huge financial collapse, a bloodbath in employment, civil unrest and a collapse of the government followed by years of instability. I am happy to return to this topic in future months/years and admit it if I'm wrong. As it happens I hope you're right but I have grave doubts.

Fair enough. I think we are going to respectfully disagree on where things stand.