Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

Fair enough if you stated this in error, but you did state that Wolf was not found guilty. They were.

Oh FFS. If English is not your first language then I accept your difficulty, otherwise you really must try harder. 'Violent beating' was not the charge, it wasn't on the charge sheet. Neither did the magistrate find that the actions of the 61 year old woman 'harmless'. Not only that but the charge was not 'male violence' either. Seeing the problem yet? It's sensationalism from rewriting the charge sheet and making up charges that don't even exist in law.

Wolf was not found guilty of 'violent beating' or 'male violence'.

I quoted what the magistrate's words were for the true account.

I didn't read your post past that point as I already knew it would be a load of bolleaux. Like I say you troll along behind desperately trying to find something, then cherry-pick a few words from one sentence in order to change the meaning - master of the cheap shot.

 

[winjim]

Unwittingly AS is exercising a sifting mechanism whereby she is sorting by reproductive sex, but the issued kit is not strictly binary, so when that mechanism fails to sift precisely, as it always will because of the menopause, she sorts by what reproductive organs people used to have if they are cis, but uses the opposite rule if the are trans. The fact that we are in the category of mammals meaning that the females have breasts is skipped because that would not be helpful, making trans women actually women as it would. So we must skip to the non-reproductive sifting stage, such as chromosomes, but there are too many difficulties here because chromosomal sex is not binary. That leaves what is perhaps the final sift, and unwittingly she is using gender identity then - women are women coz they are, so yaboo shucks, that's how I do it.

I know this is just some minor online forum and nobody is obliged to cater to my whims but I do actually think this is interesting and I'm not (currently) trying to score points or anything. We're told something is easy but then when I try to really drill down and investigate, there's nothing. Just silence.

In this part of the discussion I don't have an agenda. Obviously I have biases, including unconscious ones, but I'd genuinely like to know how people think this can work. Can we genuinely on the basis of biological characteristic, separate the entire population into discrete categories? If we can, or if we can't, what are the implications?

 

[monkers]

Whataboutery. This has no validity to your claim that trans women who have been taking HRT are rapists. Clearly the probability is infinitesimally small. These various and spurious facts that you claim, that these women could be guilty of rape just as often or more than cis men is too ridiculous for words.

I think we are nitpicking a little. If transwomen are women and any man who says that they are now a women is a transwoman, then it follows that there are transwomen who have not taken HRT, or any sort of therapy or surgery. I think this is the nub of @AuroraSaab's position and that of many people who think that we need to have some boundaries.

My mistake, I read on. Here it is again - not reading the post then pretending it says something that it doesn't. My words clearly say, 'trans women who have been taking HRT' then you pretend that the group under discussion is those who are not.

Discussion with you is just hopeless.

 

[Rusty Nails]

You are probably right, but the counter point to that is to ask how they were introduced to those views in the first place.
,

Ae,nd here's the next step, a government minister:


View: https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1640267395892649985?s=20

I doubt whether much of this is started by the likes of JHB or government ministers...even Tories.

There are, unfortunately, people who are always ready to believe the worst of other people, especially people who "are not like them", whether that be race, sexuality, gender identity, immigration status etc. These people can come from the ranks of the educated/uneducated/privileged/disadvantaged. Communications today make it easier for such people to find like minded people who will validate and exacerbate their views. Bad news sells much more than good news.

JHB et al and Twitter are not the source of the problem but live off it and are a handy conduit for either spreading or searching for such views. Years ago the nasty mouthpiece KJK would be lucky to be heard of outside her own town, but we are where we are and the battle for people's views is only going to get nastier.

 

[icowden]

Wolf was not found guilty of 'violent beating' or 'male violence'.

In that case Wolf was also not found guilty of murder, theft, arson or death by dangerous driving. What an utterly pointless statement to make.

I quoted what the magistrate's words were for the true account.

There wasn't a magistrate. Wolf was seen by a District Judge in the magistrate's court.

I didn't read your post past that point as I already knew it would be a load of bolleaux. Like I say you troll along behind desperately trying to find something, then cherry-pick a few words from one sentence in order to change the meaning - master of the cheap shot.

No, I read what is written and then respond to it, even if it is nonsense, but I do try not to be rude about it. if you are unable to participate in discussion points, fair enough, but by responding like this you only reinforce the case that pro-trans people are the rude, aggressive zealots here.

 

[monkers]

I know this is just some minor online forum and nobody is obliged to cater to my whims but I do actually think this is interesting and I'm not (currently) trying to score points or anything. We're told something is easy but then when I try to really drill down and investigate, there's nothing. Just silence.

In this part of the discussion I don't have an agenda. Obviously I have biases, including unconscious ones, but I'd genuinely like to know how people think this can work. Can we genuinely on the basis of biological characteristic, separate the entire population into discrete categories? If we can, or if we can't, what are the implications?

It's not just if we can though is it? Isn't it a case if we as a society want to? If we can and do, how do we prevent invasion of privacy and allow people to live a life in dignity without being the targets of bigots?

Imagine being a trans woman right now who say transitioned 10 or more years ago when the world was a calmer place. These days there is attack from the left wing from the TERFs, attack from the right from the GC brigade, and attack from the far right from the Nazis.

These people have done nothing wrong but the torment and excessive interest from Murdoch's media circus is relentless.

 

[monkers]

Wolf was not found guilty of 'violent beating' or 'male violence'.

In that case Wolf was also not found guilty of murder, theft, arson or death by dangerous driving. What an utterly pointless statement to make.

You really are pointless aren't you. Those charges are not the charges imagined by Aurora or GC people, the ones I stated were.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm reduced to waterworks only following a diagnoses of cancer in '99, and removal later the same year.

In the old N&CA on CC, you laughed at this. Saying it's still possible for anyone in a similar condition to still be a danger to women. How exactly you never answered, choosing to mock the situation I'm in. You never ignored the point raised, just sought to laugh at someone in that position.

You are the biggest user of that argument on here, no-one else comes close.

I absolutely did not laugh at that. You are either misremembering or simply lying because you know we can no longer check. That aside, it is still possible for anyone to be a risk to others in terms of sexual assault, including men with erectile issues. You are setting the bar very high if you imagine only rape by penis penetration counts as worthy of safeguarding against.

 

[icowden]

These people have done nothing wrong but the torment and excessive interest from Murdoch's media circus is relentless.

And again, you miss the point that the majority of the debate is not about "these people". It is about the people who want to suppress free speech, remove women's rights and don't recognise that there is a threat from those who are not genuinely trans.

 

[icowden]

You really are pointless aren't you. Those charges are not the charges imagined by Aurora or GC people, the ones I stated were.

The only person who has mentioned violent assault is you. Aurora posted an article and said that Wolf had been found guilty of assault (which they had). I'd quote it, but you seem keen to disavow your own words in favour of just being rude.

 

[monkers]

And again, you miss the point that the majority of the debate is not about "these people". It is about the people who want to suppress free speech, remove women's rights and don't recognise that there is a threat from those who are not genuinely trans.

No, it is about the ongoing stigmatising of those trans people who are innocent of any crime, but all tarred with the same brush.

 

[icowden]

No, it is about the ongoing stigmatising of those trans people who are innocent of any crime, but all tarred with the same brush.

Then I think I see where the issue is. There are two different discussions going on.

 

[matticus]

No, it is about the ongoing stigmatising of those trans people who are innocent of any crime, but all tarred with the same brush.

Do you think that is why cis males are excluded from female toilets?

 

[winjim]

It's not just if we can though is it? Isn't it a case if we as a society want to? If we can and do, how do we prevent invasion of privacy and allow people to live a life in dignity without being the targets of bigots?

Imagine being a trans woman right now who say transitioned 10 or more years ago when the world was a calmer place. These days there is attack from the left wing from the TERFs, attack from the right from the GC brigade, and attack from the far right from the Nazis.

These people have done nothing wrong but the torment and excessive interest from Murdoch's media circus is relentless.

Well quite. Can we? Should we? Who does it help and who does it hinder? It's all interesting stuff but it does tend to get drowned out somewhat.

As I said a few times upthread, I've specifically not brought up DSDs and I'm not really even approaching this from a trans rights or even feminist point of view. But we do frequently see accusations of people being unable to define a woman, usually I feel as a kind of gotcha, a signal to others. We've had someone say it's easy, in fact two people although I'm unsure if their definitions are quite in agreement so...

 

[monkers]

Do you think that is why cis males are excluded from female toilets?

This is a stigmatisation in itself isn't it. You are saying that there is no difference in potential for rape from a man who has no business in a women's loo and a trans woman who has undergone a medical transition of hormone replacement therapy, or possibly surgery. This is plainly a bogus argument.