Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

On sports you've directed people to an opinion piece that posits trans inclusion, which you called a 'study' before you were corrected. Post #1351:

Hiya. There's a new study published. You might find this helpful ...
https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/f...lbHruCJDOWm2X7feQRwUdFwO1UnPSRFSnOYanXiZWKrK0

You mean you attempted a correction. You'll kindly note that I haven't expressed a belief in the work, just said that it might be helpful.

I called it a 'study'. It is not fresh scientific research on that we can agree. It is a review of the available scientific literature; in that sense the word 'study' does not seem unreasonable to me. Other than posting this I reclused myself from giving an opinion because I simply am not expert enough. Why do you continue to have such a problem with me saying 'I don't know' that you instead insist on misrepresenting me?

I disagree with you saying that the science is settled and that is the end point, or that a consensus has been reached. What you really mean is that a consensus of dissenting voices from the far left and far right has been reached. A consensus means at least a majority of all people.
So where is the evidence of scientists saying that the science is settled? Where is the evidence of a consensus of scientific views? Please show me because I'd like the opportunity to study this hitherto unseen evidence.

 

[monkers]

Dawkins and Winston and the vast majority of biologists make the same claim as gender critical folk re sex being binary and immutable so that's a bit like saying 'I disagree with your belief in gravity, I haven't said anything about what Isaac Newton believes'.
Many geneticists? I know of a few doctors who dispute the binary nature of sex but they are mostly reliant for their income on willfully ignoring the scientific concensus.

Then you need to extend your field of research, because there are a good number of geneticists who disagree that sex in humans is binary.

 

[newfhouse]

a better question might be

Better for who? It’s not what I asked.

 

[multitool]

'Most women are happy sharing spaces with transwomen' is a bit of a stretch based on 51% replying to a single question about toilets. There you are speaking for women again... doing just what you accuse me of lol.

Toilets, spaces, whatever. I can't remember the specifics of an interminable debate with you, who lies, dissemble, distorts at every turn. Point is you made a claim about womens opinions, I demonstrated it was untrue.

Pretty obvious I am more in touch with women's views than you are, which is to be expected of a zealot.

The actual majority have remarked on it? I think this is your toilet Maths at work again. But here you are again speaking for everybody else on the thread and doing what you accuse me of.

Nope. I'm not speaking for anybody. They've all said it explicitly. Here on this thread. Me, Monkers, theclaud, winjim, etc

You've constantly equated all gender critical feminism with KJK, and KJK with fascism,

I sometimes wonder what goes on in your head. I've done no such thing.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Better for who? It’s not what I asked.

Better for everyone. Should an anorexic be given the treatment they believe will help them on demand without any gatekeeping - diet pills and liposuction - or should there be a diagnosis and a discussion of appropriate treatment?

When someone applies for the paraolympics should they be taken at their word about their level of disability? Or should they have to provide a diagnosis and evidence?

Perhaps you think it's not possible to decide whether someone genuinely has body dysphoria. In which case it seems odd that there is a massive industry which makes lifelong medical patients of people, giving them pills we don't know the long term effects of and surgeries that are irreversible.

Do you think there should be any psychological evaluation for say an 11 year old who wants puberty blockers? Who gets to decide if they are genuinely dysphoric? A Twitter poll?

 

[AuroraSaab]

You mean you attempted a correction. You'll kindly note that I haven't expressed a belief in the work, just said that it might be helpful.

This is what I mean. You post links then say you weren't posting it as supporting evidence of your claims. This allows you to backtrack and say 'I've offered no opinion on x,y, and z'. No, just a bunch of supporting evidence that you can disown when it doesn't bear analysis.

I disagree with you saying that the science is settled and that is the end point, or that a consensus has been reached. What you really mean is that a consensus of dissenting voices from the far left and far right has been reached. A consensus means at least a majority of all people.
So where is the evidence of scientists saying that the science is settled? Where is the evidence of a consensus of scientific views? Please show me because I'd like the opportunity to study this hitherto unseen evidence.

'There's no consensus on gravity. The science isn't settled'. The science on sex being immutable and binary has been settled for centuries. It's understandably taken as read. A few ideologically driven scientists using the tiny number of people with dsd's to suggest sex is on a spectrum doesn't upturn hundreds of years of scientific knowledge. Or common sense about where babies come from.

 

[monkers]

Better for everyone. Should an anorexic be given the treatment they believe will help them on demand without any gatekeeping - diet pills and liposuction - or should there be a diagnosis and a discussion of appropriate treatment?

When someone applies for the paraolympics should they be taken at their word about their level of disability? Or should they have to provide a diagnosis and evidence?

Perhaps you think it's not possible to decide whether someone genuinely has body dysphoria. In which case it seems odd that there is a massive industry which makes lifelong medical patients of people, giving them pills we don't know the long term effects of and surgeries that are irreversible.

Do you think there should be any psychological evaluation for say an 11 year old who wants puberty blockers? Who gets to decide if they are genuinely dysphoric? A Twitter poll?

''All trans people are dangerous mentally ill freaks of nature. They are recruiting our children because they can't have their own.

The World Health Organisation are not worthy in my presence. All bow before me.''

All kneel before the incarnate Anita Bryant.

Question: do you incarnates ever experience body dysmorphia? I think it important to the 'discussion'.

Maybe it's more body / mind incongruence?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Point is you made a claim about womens opinions, I demonstrated it was untrue. Brexit toilet Maths. 51% on a specific question about toilets does not extrapolate to your general claim that women are happy sharing their spaces with transwomen. I gave you other surveys that say differently.

Pretty obvious I am more in touch with women's views than you are, which is to be expected of a zealot. Again, here you are claiming you know what women think. As you constantly claim I do. If I posted that line you'd be all over it lol.

If you spent more time providing evidence instead of abusing people and posting every dodgy 'gotcha' imaginable - from surveys that don't even back you up, to cartoons from nonce adjacent artists - this could have been a more fruitful discussion.

 

[AuroraSaab]

''All trans people are dangerous mentally ill freaks of nature. They are recruiting our children because they can't have their own. The World Health Organisation are not worthy in my presence. All bow before me.''

All kneel before the incarnate Anita Bryant.

Question: do you incarnates ever experience body dysmorphia? I think it important to the 'discussion'.

Nobody has said any of that. You are doing what you accuse me of.

In fact, nobody seems to be saying body dysphoria doesn't exist. The question is what is appropriate treatment for the condition once a diagnosis has been made. In the majority of young people these feelings are transient and resolve by adulthood. As the medical treatment can involve irreversible puberty blockers, double mastaectomies, and removing genitals, probably best to get a diagnosis and explore all avenues rather than let people self ID into it surely. Just like we do when people present with other forms of mental distress.

Of course, if you think gender identity is innate then none of this diagnosing and erring on the side of caution is appropriate I suppose.

 

[monkers]

Nobody has said any of that. You are doing what you accuse me of.

In fact, nobody seems to be saying body dysphoria doesn't exist. The question is what is appropriate treatment for the condition once a diagnosis has been made. In the majority of young people these feelings are transient and resolve by adulthood. As the medical treatment can involve irreversible puberty blockers, double mastaectomies, and removing genitals, probably best to get a diagnosis and explore all avenues rather than let people self ID into it surely. Just like we do when people present with other forms of mental distress.

Of course, if you think gender identity is innate then none of this diagnosing and erring on the side of caution is appropriate I suppose.

You've just made a direct comparison between diagnosable mental health conditions and a condition that the WHO says is not a mental health condition and that has no means of diagnosis.

It's like you calling for anyone that you don't understand or agree with to have electro-shock therapy or something.

Here's a bit of hint. In the photograph below, these people are not the W.H.O even though we know them as some form of letters remarkably close.

The WHO I'm talking about are the World Health Organisation.

https://www.who.int/multi-media/det...nce-transgender)-questions-and-answers-(q-a)#

Don't tell me: the WHO have no jurisdiction here because you prefer Posie Parker, or Kathleen Stock or somebody.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If it's not a medical condition, mental or otherwise, and there's no means of diagnosis, then it should require no medicines or surgeries. We don't routinely give nhs nose jobs to people who feel uncomfortable with having a big nose, nor diet pills to anorexics who need to weigh 6 stone to feel their true selves. Which other condition that can't be diagnosed do we medicate with drugs with irreversible effects?

If gender identity is innate, it wouldn't change over the course of a lifetime. We know it does in some people so how can it be dismissed as not a matter of mental health?

The man who popularised lobotomies won the Nobel Prize. They were also cheered on by the medical establishment as the best treatment. Not everyone agrees with the WHO decision, though of course those who make their living referring kids to hospitals and the surgeons who do maestectomies on young women have no doubt given it their approval.

The current US market for gender reassignment surgery alone is about $2 billion a year. This doesn't include the market for meds like puberty blockers. Estimated to grow at 10% a year.

No wonder some in the medical establishment are happy to see body dysphoria depathologised. No more pesky gatekeeping for those lucrative surgeries and expensive drugs that leave you infertile and without sexual function. It's just elective surgery now. What could possibly go wrong?

Don't feel obliged to answer these questions. They are rhetorical and intended to indicate the level of ideological capture within the scientific community and the success of specific interest groups in influencing policy. We saw exactly the same in sport - ideological capture then eventually common sense prevailed and the regs were altered - and we've seen the same reversals re puberty blockers in the UK and some scandi countries.

 

[multitool]

If you spent more time providing evidence instead of abusing people and posting every dodgy 'gotcha' imaginable - from surveys that don't even back you up, to cartoons from nonce adjacent artists - this could have been a more fruitful discussion.

Pointing out your lies and misrepresentations is not "abuse".

 

[monkers]

AuroraSaab said

If it's not a medical condition, mental or otherwise, then it should require no medicines or surgeries. We don't routinely give nhs nose jobs to people who feel uncomfortable with having a big nose, nor diet pills to anorexic who need to weigh 6 stone to feel their true selves.
If gender identity is innate, it wouldn't change over the course of a lifetime. We know it does in some people so how can it be dismissed as not a matter of mental health?

The man who popularised lobotomies won the Nobel Prize. They were also cheered on by the medical establishment as the best treatment. Not everyone agrees with the WHO decision, though of course those who make their living referring kids to hospitals and the surgeons who do maestectomies on young women have no doubt given it their approval.

The current US market for gender reassignment surgery alone is about $2 billion a year. This doesn't include the market for meds like puberty blockers. Estimated to grow at 10% a year.

No wonder the medical establishment are happy to see body dysphoria depathologised. No more pesky gatekeeping for those lucrative surgeries and expensive drugs that leave you infertile and without sexual function. It's just elective surgery now. What could possibly go wrong?

This is why you are such a bad faith actor. You didn't watch the link I provided to the evidence in the WHO did you.

The WHO say it is not a mental health condition, which explains why there is no means of diagnosis. Utterly and contemptuously disingenuous of you to suggest that trans people therefore can not benefit from medical interventions.

I can't help but laugh at your ineptitude to debate. You have falsely accused me of disagreeing with Nobel Prize winners, and seem unable to provide me with the names of people that you allege I've disagreed with.

And then ... you post this garbage. That somebody won a Nobel Prize for lobotomy. Now do you want me to agree with that person as an authority, or recoil in horror? I'm not sure that you've given me any opportunity for a response that will be acceptable to you - damned if I do agree, and damned if I don't.

Nobel Prizes are not awarded by the World Health Organisation - these are pure distraction techniques or incompetence. Which is it?

You've also unwittingly reinforced the point that I keep making to you but you have rejected - science is not an end point or fixed point, it is a process of enquiry. There is no scientific consensus on the points you claim.

You continually just make stuff up. Let's take your allegation of what I said about Robert Winston.

And here are the exact words I used in my very first contributed post #918 to this thread and to NACA ...

What the scientists say is subject to some variation depending upon their specialism. Some like to mention Robert Winston, an undoubtedly clever chap in his field; his speciality being reproductive sex and associated stuff. He says that trans people can not change sex. That's actually not that contentious. It's believed that trans people tend to say that they can. But that isn't true. Trans people as a group of people tend to be quite well-informed on these matters as you might expect. They do not say that they change biological sex, but they change their recorded sex.

Where trans people take umbrage though is Winston's other words, saying that trans people just mangle and mutilate their bodies- which I think goes beyond 'saying it as it is'. When feminists are up in arms about body shaming they tend to be sincere, but the principle sometimes tends to evaporate when talking about trans people.

You keep repeating the same lies until eventually I am worn down and call you 'a liar'. Given the circumstances, that is not abuse that you claim it is. Your lies are the actual abuse.

The problem for you is that in this place, the record always shows.

 

[AuroraSaab]

More verbosity and personal abuse. You always fall back on it in the end because you don't like your assertions being open to scrutiny, or even debate.

There is no other condition for which doctors routinely dish out medicines with irreversible effects, and give surgery to remove healthy body parts, that does not require a diagnosis. Nor should there be. These are serious life-changing interventions.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Also, in respect of your debating techniques: