Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

At least four people have pointed out that you distort, misrepresent and put up straw men. Some have pretty much withdrawn from the thread because of it.

A more reflective person would...err...reflect on that.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Perhaps you could similarly reflect on whether your persistent personal abuse, evident on this and other threads, has enhanced NACA or discouraged people from posting.

 

[multitool]

Pointing out your incessant misrepresentation, lies and straw men is not "abuse"

 

[monkers]

Also, in respect of your debating techniques:

View attachment 3701

I'm not trying to debate with you ... I have more chance of debating with that vase!

I've now repeatedly rebutted your false allegations.

In respect to your specific allegation about Robert Winston, do you now recognise that you are wrong? I've reposted what I first said in that regard, and now every man and his dog can see that you are lying.

In order to answer the point you give me a picture of a vase and say there's a problem with my debating skills.

The problem is with you.

I'll ask again, please provide evidence that I have disagreed with Robert Winston regarding the possibility of any person being able to change their biological sex.

This is your claim, here is me refuting it, and saying provide the evidence. This is now not a debate - your credibility is in tatters but you have a chance to prove the allegation. Provide the evidence. Without the evidence I will again say that you are a liar and a bad faith actor that can not be trusted.

 

[AuroraSaab]

What other kind of meaningful definition of sex is there other than reproductive sex? We know 'lady brain' isn't a thing. Brains aren't sexed. We know secondary sexual characteristics aren't what makes you male or female because otherwise women with facial hair due to PCOS would be male and men with gynaecomastia (excess chest tissue) would be women. They aren't.

'That people exist without the capacity for reproduction...illustrates.. that reproductive sex is not binary' - the fact that infertile people exist does not disprove the binary and immutable nature of sex. Otherwise the fact that occasionally people are born without eyes would be proof that humans are not a 2 eyed species.

...if Robert Winston ...was to say, 'at the moment there is no means of one changing one's reproductive sex' then I will agree with him. I won't agree with him saying you can not change your sex, because that is a statement that is incomplete on one level and false on another.

Yet here he is saying you can't change your sex, and there you are disagreeing with him, despite now saying you haven't disagreed with him and ranting that I provide proof.

Daily Mail, no pay wall.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...inston-says-escape-genetics-trans-debate.html

I doubt he would agree with your 'Some people are infertile therefore sex isn't binary' assertion but I suppose because he personally hasn't seen fit to address each of your individual claims on a niche cycling forum then I guess we'll probably never know.

(Edited for spelling and clarity)

 

[classic33]

Bingo.

A third space that is unisex - anybody can use it. Not third class. Problem solved. Trans people have services and facilities just for them, but you seem to want to deny women the same thing.

Yes, and players and clubs have been forbidden from voicing their opinions and given a script to spout.

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/10514786/lgfa-document-ladies-footballers-launch/

Women's pro Danielle Loughrey has spoken out against it. 'She told Gript that there was “massive opposition” to the transgender policy across the country but that club members and players and volunteers had not been consulted and were afraid to speak out'.

https://gript.ie/ladies-football-trans-row-members-told-to-avoid-giving-opinions/

Barbie Khardashian is being moved from Limerick btw.

https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/iri...over-fears-of-attack-on-staff/a659395218.html

Try and keep up, that was known three weeks ago.

She's going to a secure site, in Limerick. After a safety assessment was done. The only occupant in the unit.
You'll have read that piece and noted that there are two women who murdered children currently being held in the same unit in Limerick Prison, for the same reasons as the person you've repeatedly said you're not bothered about. They are classed as too dangerous to mix with the general prison population.

The two trans women are there for their safety.

 

[monkers]

View attachment 3702

What other kind of meaningful definition of sex is there other than reproductive sex? We know 'lady brain' isn't a thing. Brains aren't sexed. We know secondary sexual characteristics aren't what makes you male or female because otherwise women with facial hair due to PCOS would be male and men with gynaecomastia (excess chest tissue) would be women. They aren't.

'That people exist without the capacity for reproduction...illustrates.. that reproductive sex is not binary' - the fact that infertile people exist does not disprove the binary and immutable nature of sex. Otherwise the fact that occasionally people are born without eyes would be proof that humans are not a 2 eyed species.



Daily Mail, no pay wall.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...inston-says-escape-genetics-trans-debate.html

Winston says: you can't change sex, your sex is in every cell of your body, it's determined by genetics, surgery is only cosmetic.

I doubt he would agree with your 'Some people are infertile therefore sex isn't binary' assertion but I suppose because he personally hasn't seen fit to address each of your individual claims on a niche cycling forum then I guess we'll never know.

So did I say that Robert Winston is wrong to say that people can not wholly change their biological sex?

You have found no evidence. You've just posted whataboutery. I never said it. You lied.

In response to this, trans people who use hormone replacement therapy in order to change the balance of their hormonal sex. This being the case we can not say that sex in binary and immutable.

I'm not making this up, you've provided the evidence that you think is the case today. You went on a ranty episode of whataboutery in regard to use of hormones with irreversible changes.

So if the changes induced by hormone replacement therapy produce secondary characteristics of the acquired sex / gender and are irreversible, can we say that biological sex is immutable? Obviously we can't, and if we can change some (but not all) elements of biological sex such that some people have some secondary sex characteristics that are residual from a male puberty but have also some 'irreversible' sex characteristics from a second female puberty, then we can not claim that biological sex is an absolute binary, or that it is immutable.

It really isn't a debate when you claim that biological sex is an absolute binary and immutable, and then also say that doctors are helping people to actually make changes to their biological sex.

 

[icowden]

You've just made a direct comparison between diagnosable mental health conditions and a condition that the WHO says is not a mental health condition and that has no means of diagnosis.

I'm not sure it says that. What it has said is that rather than classifying Gender Dysphoria as "Gender identity disorder" under the Mental Health section of ICD11, they have created a new section around Conditions related to Sexual Health and introduced a code for Gender Dysphoria. It is still a diagnosable condition as it is listed in ICD11 (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems). As such, it is a diagnosis and will be recorded as such on your electronic health record.

The reason for the change doesn't appear to be based on any science (If you can find some please share) but because those diagnosed feel that it created additional stigma around the condition.

It's a very complex area. Some sources say it should be treated as homosexuality and is just the way that you are made. It is part of your personality. Others are concerned that whereas being gay does not require medical intervention, being transgender requires significant surgery and hormone treatment, and thus question whether very young people should be having permanent life-changing, irreversible body alterations that are not carried out for any other type of dysmorphia.

 

[icowden]

In terms of what you said about GPs, that wasn't correct. People who complete transition (ie have a GRC) are by default recoded. The medical records of the previous identity are archived.

I admire your optimism about what can *actually* be done with the available software. This is broadly true in that your old record is archived. The new one will be next to empty.

The GMC tells doctors they should otherwise change the record of a person's gender / sex at their request. This does not require the patient to have so much as started transition. This is not reserved for people who are trans identifying but for anyone.

Agreed. Now tell me how I can safely record it in any available electronic patient record.

At one time the NHS numbers given to GRC holding trans people included an incorrect coding that indicated to hospitals that the patient was not a British citizen and not entitled to treatment under the NHS. This has caused absolute nightmares for some trans people and considerable embarrassment for hospital staff.

Can you find a reference for that? The NHS number itself is a number. It has no significance and nothing coded into it. It's a number and has been since 1995. If this issue was pre-1995 then yes, that's possible. Post 1995 it's not.

 

[monkers]

I'm not sure it says that. What it has said is that rather than classifying Gender Dysphoria as "Gender identity disorder" under the Mental Health section of ICD11, they have created a new section around Conditions related to Sexual Health and introduced a code for Gender Dysphoria. It is still a diagnosable condition as it is listed in ICD11 (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems). As such, it is a diagnosis and will be recorded as such on your electronic health record.

The reason for the change doesn't appear to be based on any science (If you can find some please share) but because those diagnosed feel that it created additional stigma around the condition.

It's a very complex area. Some sources say it should be treated as homosexuality and is just the way that you are made. It is part of your personality. Others are concerned that whereas being gay does not require medical intervention, being transgender requires significant surgery and hormone treatment, and thus question whether very young people should be having permanent life-changing, irreversible body alterations that are not carried out for any other type of dysmorphia.

Let's start by agreeing that is a complex area. Let's agree about the reclassification. Let's hope that we can agree that the WHO have abolished the category of 'gender dysphoria' and replaced that with 'gender incongruence'. (Note that I'm not giving any opinion on these terms within that).

Hopefully we can agree that neither the WHO or I are saying that a trans person can not have a mental health condition or an underlying mental health condition. The WHO are saying the they do not categorise gender incongruence as a mental health condition. It ought to follow that if gender incongruence is not in itself considered to be a mental health condition, then we can not make a mental health diagnosis of it.

Having heard plenty of accounts from trans people about what happens at their appointments, it becomes clear that no diagnostic tests are made. Indeed I've seen the reports that passed from the GIC to GP in the case of my niece - there is no mention of any diagnostic test. Each report contains a summary of her mood, her intended pathway, and her own assessment of how well she is 'fitting in'.

The Gender Recognition Panel sees written evidence from the applicant about their life over a two year period. It asks about the medical procedures that the applicant has sought and what has been provided. This can include counselling, voice therapy, facial and body hair removal, hormone therapy, and any surgeries.

However the GRA are not insistent that any or all of these are requirements in being granted a GRC - they are more interested in hearing that any changes made have been life-improving.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You'll have read that piece and noted that there are two women who murdered children currently being held in the same unit in Limerick Prison, for the same reasons as the person you've repeatedly said you're not bothered about. They are classed as too dangerous to mix with the general prison population.

The two trans women are there for their safety.

BK is in segregation because they themselves would be unsafe amongst the women prisoners? Yet BK is being moved because the prison officers are scared of BK? Doesn't make sense. Perhaps BK will finally get access to some psychiatric intervention in the new unit.

 

[monkers]

In terms of what you said about GPs, that wasn't correct. People who complete transition (ie have a GRC) are by default recoded. The medical records of the previous identity are archived.

Icowden said ... I admire your optimism about what can *actually* be done with the available software. This is broadly true in that your old record is archived. The new one will be next to empty.

I think that management who had excess optimism. From what I have heard not all such ambitions were achievable and therefore undeliverable.

 

[monkers]

The GMC tells doctors they should otherwise change the record of a person's gender / sex at their request. This does not require the patient to have so much as started transition. This is not reserved for people who are trans identifying but for anyone.

Icowden said. Agreed. Now tell me how I can safely record it in any available electronic patient record.

You'll remember me saying I have no knowledge of such things, and you had some exchange with my partner who does.

However I remember seeing an article about this some time ago. I don't think I have in bookmarked, but I will try to find it. If I find it, I'll share it.

 

[classic33]

BK is in segregation because they themselves would be unsafe amongst the women prisoners? Yet BK is being moved because the prison officers are scared of BK? Doesn't make sense. Perhaps BK will finally get access to some psychiatric intervention in the new unit.

She is in isolation/solitary because she is classed as a danger to staff and prisoners. The two child murders sharing the same wing are classed the same, a danger to staff and other prisoners.

 

[monkers]

At one time the NHS numbers given to GRC holding trans people included an incorrect coding that indicated to hospitals that the patient was not a British citizen and not entitled to treatment under the NHS. This has caused absolute nightmares for some trans people and considerable embarrassment for hospital staff.

icowden said ... Can you find a reference for that? The NHS number itself is a number. It has no significance and nothing coded into it. It's a number and has been since 1995. If this issue was pre-1995 then yes, that's possible. Post 1995 it's not.

A reference? Not offhand. However, my niece had a small accident that required a visit to A&E which required assessment by a junior doctor, X-rays and a second assessment. The assessment proved to be incorrect, so an appointment with a consultant in the same hospital became necessary. He couldn't find the X-rays on their system. New x-rays were taken and further appointment was made with the consultant.

In between appointments she received an invoice for the first consultant's appointment, which she couldn't understand being an NHS hospital so she challenged it. She was told that she had to take a list of documentation to the hospital to prove her identity, or otherwise pay the invoice before being seen for the second time. She provided the documents, which they accepted. Then she was given the explanation, that her NHS number had been recoded - she hadn't been aware, so was not be request. She was then told that not only were the X-rays missing but her entire electronic medical history had been wiped. The explanation for this was that her NHS number had been recoded as 'not a UK citizen'.

She wrote and requested that this explanation be put in writing. It never has been.