Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

People do give a toss about this. Transwoman wants to play in women's rugby:

It's interesting that in her gofundme campaign, the thrust is on her being allowed to do what she wants, and there is no consideration as to the reason why she has been excluded in the first place, to wit:-

The review and consultation concluded that detailed peer reviewed research provides evidence that there are physical differences between those people whose sex originally recorded as male and those as female at birth, and advantages in strength, stamina and physique brought about by testosterone and male puberty are significant and retained even after testosterone suppression.
This science provides the basis of the new gender participation policy that concludes the inclusion of trans people originally recorded male at birth in female contact rugby cannot be balanced against considerations of safety and fairness.
The RFU Council has determined that until such time as new further peer-reviewed science is available, a precautionary approach is appropriate to ensure fair competition and safety of all competitors. Therefore, the RFU Council approved a policy change to only permit players in the female category if the sex originally recorded at birth is female.
The RFU recognises this was a complex and difficult decision and the policy change was not taken lightly or without thorough and full research and consultation.

So in her mind is it s unfair that she is not allowed to play in women's rugby as she cannot see that due to the imbalance of her size, weight and strength vs a women's size, weight and strength she is putting every other player on the field at risk, whereas a transman playing rugby is only putting themselves at risk.

 

[icowden]

This is a man abducting a child in the street wearing women's clothes. He identified himself as Andrew Miller to police. It will be recorded as male crime.

Not according to the news article. At the time of the crime he was Amy George and it was confirmed that he is transitioning. He agreed that the police could use hum/he pronouns and his "deadname" in order to avoid confusion.

If he was identifying as a transwoman called Amy George and was transitioning, that makes him a woman, no?

 

[icowden]

My former colleague Heather, formerly Barry, has had the drugs and the surgery. She has a GRC. She was way beyond child bearing age by the time she started to transition and many other women of her age are also without a uterus.
For all practical purposes she has changed sex.
How could that not be??

She has XY chromosomes, a male physique, male sized hands and feet, a different pelvis and hip formation, different hormonal production, she will not be peri-menopausal or post-menopausal. She has no fallopian tubes or ovaries. She has never experienced menopause or periods or the hormonal imbalances that women go through, and for most of her life has had no lived experience of being a woman.

There will be medications and screening that she should not have because she is not a biological woman.

Other than that, she will be indistinguishable. For most people that isn't problematic.
As I have said before the issue is not the people like Heather. The issue is the people piggybacking on it.

 

[monkers]

Not according to the news article. At the time of the crime he was Amy George and it was confirmed that he is transitioning. He agreed that the police could use hum/he pronouns and his "deadname" in order to avoid confusion.

If he was identifying as a transwoman called Amy George and was transitioning, that makes him a woman, no?

No it means that he remains legally male. What it does mean is that he has rights as far as discrimination, victimisation, and harassment.

Only when transition is completed, ie the person holds a GRC and amended birth certificate does the legal recognition of the person's legal sex change.

Come on, I do keep repeating this, please let the penny drop now.

 

[multitool]

. The issue is the people piggybacking on it.

In what way?

 

[Bromptonaut]

Not according to the news article. At the time of the crime he was Amy George and it was confirmed that he is transitioning. He agreed that the police could use hum/he pronouns and his "deadname" in order to avoid confusion.

If he was identifying as a transwoman called Amy George and was transitioning, that makes him a woman, no?

I was about to answer this but can see that @monkers has said it all first.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Come on, I do keep repeating this, please let the penny drop now.

I strongly suspect that some folks on this thread are holding onto the penny so it cannot drop.

 

[icowden]

In what way?

As has been pointed out many times, there is a difference between someone with gender dysphoria who has or is transitioning, taking hormones and or having surgery etc and someone who is just dressing as a woman and calling themselves Trans.

@monkers has pointed out that someone genuinely transitioning would find it very hard to rape someone due to the hormonal changes they are undergoing.

But attacks are happening. The BBC article is an attack that happened this week. An attack by a transwoman who was transitioning but who, for the purposes of the article is being called a man.

You cannot have it both ways. Either this person is a transwoman and transitioning, and has the right to be referred to as such or they are not transitioning and are a man in a dress.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Not according to the news article. At the time of the crime he was Amy George and it was confirmed that he is transitioning. He agreed that the police could use hum/he pronouns and his "deadname" in order to avoid confusion.

If he was identifying as a transwoman called Amy George and was transitioning, that makes him a woman, no?

Just to add to what Monkers said even under Scotland's proposed amendments Andrew/Amy would not be a woman merely by dint of saying they were transitioning. They'd still need a GRC. The would, rightly in my view, find getting one an easier journey but they'd still have to get one which involves legal hoop jumping etc.

 

[Bromptonaut]

You cannot have it both ways. Either this person is a transwoman and transitioning, and has the right to be referred to as such or they are not transitioning and are a man in a dress.

They could be either. Right now, on the evidence in the public domain, there's not enough to go on.

In any even it's an adult sexually assaulting a child. That's the offence they plead guilty to and for which they'll be sentenced.

A custodial sentence is inevitable and I believe they're remanded in custody. Whether remand and sentence are in the male or female estate is a matter for the Scottish Prison Service.

 

[multitool]

As has been pointed out many times, there is a difference between someone with gender dysphoria who has or is transitioning, taking hormones and or having surgery etc and someone who is just dressing as a woman and calling themselves Trans.

You said "the issue". So what is the issue, because earlier you denied ever claiming that people would abuse self ID in order to access women's spaces in order to abuse them.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's interesting that in her gofundme campaign, the thrust is on her being allowed to do what she wants, and there is no consideration as to the reason why she has been excluded in the first place.

As the science showing male advantage has been recognised the argument of transactivists has shifted. Joanne Harper, transwoman sports researcher, now advocates inclusion being fair because reduced testosterone results in 'meaningful competition' rather than no advantage. Veronica Ivy now rests most of her case on the perceived human right to be in women's cycling.

The court case will be an absolute non starter, useful only for making it clear that it's lawful to exclude.

 

[icowden]

You said "the issue". So what is the issue, because earlier you denied ever claiming that people would abuse self ID in order to access women's spaces in order to abuse them.

I'm looking forward to you providing the quote where I said this, because I definitely didn't.

 

[icowden]

Just to add to what Monkers said even under Scotland's proposed amendments Andrew/Amy would not be a woman merely by dint of saying they were transitioning. They'd still need a GRC. The would, rightly in my view, find getting one an easier journey but they'd still have to get one which involves legal hoop jumping etc.

You don't need a GRC to be a woman. Andrew has every right to be treated as a woman without the need for a GRC, and the vast majority of transwomen and transmen do not have one and are not applying for one. I can't believe you are discriminating against her!

 

[icowden]

They could be either. Right now, on the evidence in the public domain, there's not enough to go on.
In any even it's an adult sexually assaulting a child. That's the offence they plead guilty to and for which they'll be sentenced.
A custodial sentence is inevitable and I believe they're remanded in custody. Whether remand and sentence are in the male or female estate is a matter for the Scottish Prison Service.

I agree entirely. My point was not about the offence, nor the perpetrator. It was about the false reporting of this crime as being by a woman in a dress, when the article clearly states that Amy is a transwoman.

Most other outlets have reported that the perp was transgender whilst the BBC have deliberately tried to not portray Andrew/Amy as such, presumably for fear of offending the transgender community.