Gender again. Sorry!

[winjim]

That was just the first lap. There's a few more times to go round yet.

That implies you think there's any sort of direction to it.

 

[Ian H]

That implies you think there's any sort of direction to it.

There is a direction, but no progress. Circular argument.

 

[mudsticks]

There is a direction, but no progress. Circular argument.

To be fair this is how progress is often made though ..
Sometimes things do go round and round a dense intractable, seemingly inescapable object.

But in fact, the trajectory is often gradually, imperceptibly, but definitely spiralling outwards .

And then one day it's finally possible to escape the gravitational pull of the mass, and go flying free* into space..

So keep a hold of your britches Ian, because you just never know when you might find yourself getting blasted out into the further reaches of the non gendered cosmos..

👽🌈🧐

* Or else folks just get bored of arguing so very vehemently about stuff, and end up settling for some kind of 'livable compromise' 😇

 

[icowden]

Fancy that! You've accidentally arrived back at the OP.

But they *want* a certificate. That's what the legislation is about. Having a certificate. So they have a piece of paper that says that they now have the rights of a different gender to that that they were born with. That they should have absolute access to everything that a woman does.

That's why they need the piece of paper isn't it?

 

[monkers]

No no, you misunderstand.

I wasn't addressing you (aiui you're not a transwomen) I was slightly seriously, slightly lightheartedly addressing transwomen, and pointing out some of the realities of existing as woman..

Hence

"If transwomen feel they are expected to perform certain 'gender norms' in order to 'pass' as 'proper woman' and experience hassle if they don't, then I'm tempted to say

"Welcome to our World".

etc etc

Ok ... bit of an odd post that.

 

[winjim]

There is a direction, but no progress. Circular argument.

Not to my mind, but I'm aware I perceive the thread differently to some.

 

[monkers]

But they *want* a certificate. That's what the legislation is about. Having a certificate. So they have a piece of paper that says that they now have the rights of a different gender to that that they were born with. That they should have absolute access to everything that a woman does.

That's why they need the piece of paper isn't it?

Once a trans person has their amended birth certificate, it's unlikely they'll ever need the GRC again. It's the amended birth certificate that has the greater value.

 

[mudsticks]

Ok ... bit of an odd post that.

Well maybe.

Takes all sorts though eh??
Hopefully you're not anti-odd sorts .

The (main) serious point was, that expectations of having full rights respected as a transwoman, is a bit of a reach, given that boring old women's rights in general aren't exactly in fine fettle not neither..

 

[monkers]

Well maybe.

Takes all sorts though eh??
Hopefully you're not anti-odd sorts .

The (main) serious point was, that expectations of having full rights respected as a transwoman, is a bit of a reach, given that boring old women's rights in general aren't exactly in fine fettle not neither..

There is no legal tension between the rights of women and trans women, just a perception that there is.

 

[icowden]

There is no legal tension between the rights of women and trans women, just a perception that there is.

So it's fine for transwomen to beat cis women at sport, have access to women's prisons, rape crisis centres etc because they are now natal women according to their birth certificate?

 

[mudsticks]

There is no legal tension between the rights of women and trans women, just a perception that there is.

I didn't say there was a tension.

I was pointing out that women still very often get mistreated, just as transwomen get mistreated.

We're often in the same boat of being disrespected or mistreated because of our 'womanness' however that manifests
So welcome on board our slightly holed ship all yea transwomen.

No one ever promised it was going to be easy...

 

[monkers]

So it's fine for transwomen to beat cis women at sport, have access to women's prisons, rape crisis centres etc because they are now natal women according to their birth certificate?

Steady now I haven't said any of those things. You are putting words in my mouth that I never said. So very politely I ask you to go back and read my post again, only this time please take notice the word 'legal'.

 

[monkers]

I didn't say there was a tension.

I was pointing out that women still very often get mistreated, just as transwomen get mistreated.

We're often in the same boat of being disrespected or mistreated because of our 'womanness' however that manifests
So welcome on board our slightly holed ship all yea transwomen.

No one ever promised it was going to be easy...

Thank you that reads much better than before. Yes both cis women and trans women often get a raw deal, but I've never had the experience of being mistreated by a trans woman; rather the opposite in fact.

You will know as well as I that women operate their own hierarchy. It's more subtle but it is there. As a now older gay woman I never had kids though gay women are having kids these days thanks to innovations and a changed society. I also am perceived as a bit masculine sometimes. If I am in a setting where I meet a couple of other women, the question of kids doesn't take long to come up. When I say I have none, and the other two have, they are immediately bonded and I am made to feel excluded from their special club.

When Andrea Leadsome stood in the leadership contest against Theresa May, she put it straight out there - she is higher in that the hierarchy of women because she has children and TM does not. The moment I heard it I thought 'you bitch, I hope you lose'. And she did.

Oppression is not a single state. I've seen how some women oppress other women, but first hand I haven't seen any trans woman oppress women.

Trans women do not transition to somehow have it easy, that's a myth. The trans women I know would wish to have been born female rather face the lengthy battles they endure to have that status. Yes they miss out on childbirth etc but so do many other women including me. Having said that I did raise my sister's child from the age of 10. She's 49 now.

 

[mudsticks]

Thank you that reads much better than before. Yes both cis women and trans women often get a raw deal, but I've never had the experience of being mistreated by a trans woman; rather the opposite in fact.

You will know as well as I that women operate their own hierarchy. It's more subtle but it is there. As a now older gay woman I never had kids though gay women are having kids these days thanks to innovations and a changed society. I also am perceived as a bit masculine sometimes. If I am in a setting where I meet a couple of other women, the question of kids doesn't take long to come up. When I say I have none, and the other two have, they are immediately bonded and I am made to feel excluded from their special club.

When Andrea Leadsome stood in the leadership contest against Theresa May, she put it straight out there - she is higher in that the hierarchy of women because she has children and TM does not. The moment I heard it I thought 'you bitch, I hope you lose'. And she did.

Oppression is not a single state. I've seen how some women oppress other women, but first hand I haven't seen any trans woman oppress women.

Trans women do not transition to somehow have it easy, that's a myth. The trans women I know would wish to have been born female rather face the lengthy battles they endure to have that status. Yes they miss out on childbirth etc but so do many other women including me. Having said that I did raise my sister's child from the age of 10. She's 49 now.

Oh I know I don't have to be told about the internalised misogyny that gets heaped onto women by other women.
It's very frustrating seeing terrible behaviour and attitudes being condoned by other women.

The 'pick me' tribe and so on.

My life as a woman, and that of many of my women friends and acquaintances is fairly far off from what would be considered 'conventional' by the mainstream, whether occupational, sexual orientation, life choices vis a vis relationships kids or whatever.
That's why I was slightly tongue in cheek saying.
"Welcome to our world" to transwomen.

Expect dissapproval, disrespect, or worse.

Far more women than first meets the eye are getting through life carrying abuse trauma that was done to them on account of their sexed body.

And I never implied that transwomen transitioned to have it easy.
My post was pointing out that it likely wouldn't be, because of all the things I mentioned.
The underlying gender inequity is still there, it's not tackled strenuously enough, by those who could arguably have greatest effect IE those who hold most of the power right now.
Fwiw I too have several transpeople (in both directions) and non binary folks in my life I'm not unaware of how things are for them.

 

[monkers]

Oh I know I don't have to be told about the internalised misogyny that gets heaped onto women by other women.
It's very frustrating seeing terrible behaviour and attitudes being condoned by other women.

The 'pick me' tribe and so on.

My life as a woman, and that of many of my women friends and acquaintances is fairly far off from what would be considered 'conventional' by the mainstream, whether occupational, sexual orientation, life choices vis a vis relationships kids or whatever.
That's why I was slightly tongue in cheek saying.
"Welcome to our world" to transwomen.

Expect dissapproval, disrespect, or worse.

Far more women than first meets the eye are getting through life carrying abuse trauma that was done to them on account of their sexed body.

And I never implied that transwomen transitioned to have it easy.
My post was pointing out that it likely wouldn't be, because of all the things I mentioned.
The underlying gender inequity is still there, it's not tackled strenuously enough, by those who could arguably have greatest effect IE those who hold most of the power right now.
Fwiw I too have several transpeople (in both directions) and non binary folks in my life I'm not unaware of how things are for them.

Thanks. I'm very pleased we've sorted that out.

OK. I'm going to mention some personal stuff that I don't usually explain. My niece came out as trans to her parents when she was 10. Her father beat her badly, and the pair of them threw her out of the house. She came straight from there to me, and then by mutual agreement with her parents, she stayed with me and never went home again. My sister used to come to visit her at my place on her daughter's terms.

She stayed with me until she went off to uni but her home was here. After uni she lived with me until she was 28, and then went to work in London. She was back here for a year a couple of years or so ago. My house was always full of her friends, some trans, some not through childhood and adulthood. Some of her friends had similar coming out experiences though usually, well in fact always, at an older age, and they've lived here too. I've lived with them, laughed with them, cried with them. I've helped as best I can through their struggles. Any of them know that if they turn up and walk through my door they have a home in event of emergency and they'll be safe again.