Gender again. Sorry!

[Bromptonaut]

OK

So which is it? Is there is a risk that not allowing someone with a GRC to be placed in a womens prison would then sue for infringment of their human rights under the Equality Act? Shouldn't that scrutiny be carried out and amendments made *before* a loophole is created?


So is a Transwoman a woman if she has a GRC or not?

It would have been better if the team doing the Bill had been sighted on the arguments being made in the Outer House by another wing of Scottish Government. The passage of the Bill and the Court decision were, so far as I recall, near contemporaneous.

I'd expect the loser, a body asserting the rights of those born female, to take the case to Scotland's Appeal Court (the Inner House of the Court of Session) and that from there it may go to the Supreme Court.

If it were an English case then it would be a High Court decision. It might be persuasive in another case but not decided law that other Judges have to follow. I'm not sufficiently au fait with Scottish Courts to know whether the same principle runs there but as there is (presumably) an ongoing appeal it's meaning, effect on prisons and on your final question is moot.

 

[monkers]

A good-to-read article in Pink News yesterday.

Trans woman explains in simplest terms why UK gender law is an ‘abhorrent mess’​

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01...FLZ2g1PCID90xZQyW3gOrRTX9UHNgo5CNW9PCEPbz72bQ

 

[icowden]

A good-to-read article in Pink News yesterday.

Certainly an interesting read. I think to a degree she has it a little backwards though.

“People know who they are. We would never ask LGB people to go and get a certificate saying someone’s gay. They know who they are. Trans people know who they are. I’ve known since five, six years of age.”

That suggests that actually a certificate isn't needed at all. Trans people know they are trans. Why do they need a certificate stating that they are a man or a woman, when they already have one. It's a false conflation, comparing sexual preference with biology.

Steph wasn’t surprised by the Tory government using trans people as ‘political footballs’.

Very arguably it is the SNP Government using trans people as "political footballs". They had been advised on multiple occasions that their bill would conflict with Westminster. It seems likely that they passed it deliberately so that that conflict would happen and could be used as a further tool towards getting another independence referendum. All the Tory party (and it is rare for me to defend them) have done is to defend the goal. It was the SNP that put the ball in play.

statements like this are a bit grating also:

Steph Richards wanted to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) so that the gender on her death certificate would reflect her authentic self,

If she were her authentic self then surely she needs her death certificate to recognise that she is a biological male. Something that is authentic is of undisputed origin, accurate and reliable. Scientifically, regardless of the treatments she has undergone she remains a biological male.

I presume we are going for the modern redefinition of "authentic" being "true to oneself", which has pretty much denuded the word of much of it's meaning.

 

[monkers]

A good-to-read article in Pink News yesterday.

Certainly an interesting read. I think to a degree she has it a little backwards though.

Thanks for reading. She's not a professional writer of course, and I spotted some small technical errors too, but it comes from a person with the lived experience and from the heart.

 

[multitool]

Very arguably it is the SNP Government using trans people as "political footballs". They had been advised on multiple occasions that their bill would conflict with Westminster. It seems likely that they passed it deliberately so that that conflict would happen and could be used as a further tool towards getting another independence referendum. All the Tory party (and it is rare for me to defend them) have done is to defend the goal. It was the SNP that put the ball in play.

It was literally in their 2016 manifesto. Did you even know that? And what is more, from 2016-19 under Theresa May the UK govt was supportive of Self ID reform. So the notion that they did it to provoke a response from UK govt is daft. It pre-dates the UK govt descent into hard right politics and culture war.

Not only that, but In a June 2020 report, the European Commission classified the legal procedures for gender recognition of 28 European countries into five categories based on the barriers to access. This placed the UK's Gender Recognition Act 2004 in the second from bottom category with "intrusive medical requirements" that lag behind international human rights standards.

The 'phobes and the ignorant are trying
to present Scotland as an outlier with its self ID. It isn't, its trying to catch up with the rest of Europe.

 

[monkers]

“People know who they are. We would never ask LGB people to go and get a certificate saying someone’s gay. They know who they are. Trans people know who they are. I’ve known since five, six years of age.”

That suggests that actually a certificate isn't needed at all. Trans people know they are trans. Why do they need a certificate stating that they are a man or a woman, when they already have one. It's a false conflation, comparing sexual preference with biology.

That's a reasonable point. The GRC is a means to an end and is issued along with an amended birth certificate. Some trans women place no value on the GRC being as the birth certificate is sufficient; some shred the GRC. She's kinda right in the point she makes, a gay person doesn't need a GRC or amended birth certificate to ensure their pension is correct, or that their death certificate states their correct name / sex / gender.

 

[monkers]

Steph wasn’t surprised by the Tory government using trans people as ‘political footballs’.

Very arguably it is the SNP Government using trans people as "political footballs". They had been advised on multiple occasions that their bill would conflict with Westminster. It seems likely that they passed it deliberately so that that conflict would happen and could be used as a further tool towards getting another independence referendum. All the Tory party (and it is rare for me to defend them) have done is to defend the goal. It was the SNP that put the ball in play.

It's a view, and affiliations with political parties will vary, as will resulting opinions. I happen to agree with her assessment of this government and their methodology in its appeal to populism. Again opinions will vary, and so they should.

 

[monkers]

statements like this are a bit grating also:

Steph Richards wanted to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) so that the gender on her death certificate would reflect her authentic self,

If she were her authentic self then surely she needs her death certificate to recognise that she is a biological male. Something that is authentic is of undisputed origin, accurate and reliable. Scientifically, regardless of the treatments she has undergone she remains a biological male.

I presume we are going for the modern redefinition of "authentic" being "true to oneself", which has pretty much denuded the word of much of it's meaning.

I'm not certain where this usage of the word 'authentic' in this context sprang from, but I can't offhand think of another word to replace it. The first place I remember seeing it was in the literature from an organisation called GIRES, but I can't say that they originated it.

 

[theclaud]

That suggests that actually a certificate isn't needed at all.

Fancy that! You've accidentally arrived back at the OP.

 

[monkers]

Fancy that! You've accidentally arrived back at the OP.

I thought that when I read it too.

Unfortunately I wasn't here at the time. So back we go to the beginning and start again? Maybe not, would be like trying to negotiate the Good Friday Agreement from scratch.

 

[mudsticks]

The problem for trans people with this is that it can lead to accusations of intending to deceive. Trans people get caught between this accusation of intending to deceive and not trying hard enough to fit in. Imagine walking that particular tightrope.

There's also a hint, unintended on your part I'm sure, that not appearing 100% authentic is unacceptable.

A further problem is that if this is policed by society, there will cis gender women being wrongly perceived as being trans. This is something that must be avoided. With this is mind, I caution against going down this path.

If transwomen feel they are expected to perform certain 'gender norms' in order to 'pass' as 'proper woman' and experience hassle if they don't, then I'm tempted to say

"Welcome to our World".

Whatever you do, you must expect to get it 'wrong' in some way, and someone will be along pretty soon, to tell you by just how much you err from 'proper' woman.
Either you'll be 'trying too hard'.
Or else 'not trying' hard enough.

Also if you're hoping to be fully respected, or have your rights in actuality upheld, and hope to avoid being treated for all intents and purposes like a second class citizen, then well..

"Good luck with achieving all that also"

As a class, we as woman have been fighting for all that (and more) for many generations, we're not there yet, not by some distance.

Be certain, that If you do get variously harassed, ignored, sidelined, unfairly judged, diminished, paid less, assaulted, raped or whatever, or find your life chances reduced because you live in fear of same, then you must perforce take some of the blame.

Because If you will insist upon going around with even a hint of a 'woman' about you, transwomen or not, then there will be a not insignificant number of times in your life, that you'll get it in the neck, literally or metaphorically, for being woman, or perceived as woman.

It wasn't ever an easy path to tread, whether certificated, or not, chosen or 'born into'

But like I say .

Welcome, all the same to the real world of women 💚👍🏼💜 🙄

Fancy that! You've accidentally arrived back at the OP.

Nice bit of circularity there..

 

[monkers]

If transwomen feel they are expected to perform certain 'gender norms' in order to 'pass' as 'proper woman' and experience hassle if they don't, then I'm tempted to say

"Welcome to our World".

Whatever you do, you must expect to get it 'wrong' in some way, and someone will be along pretty soon, to tell you by just how much you err from 'proper' woman.
Either you'll be 'trying too hard'.
Or else 'not trying' hard enough.

Also if you're hoping to be fully respected, or have your rights in actuality upheld, and hope to avoid being treated for all intents and purposes like a second class citizen, then well..

"Good luck with achieving all that also"

As a class, we as woman have been fighting for all that (and more) for many generations, we're not there yet, not by some distance.

Be certain, that If you do get variously harassed, ignored, sidelined, unfairly judged, diminished, paid less, assaulted, raped or whatever, or find your life chances reduced because you live in fear of same, then you must perforce take some of the blame.

Because If you will insist upon going around with even a hint of a 'woman' about you, transwomen or not, then there will be a not insignificant number of times in your life, that you'll get it in the neck, literally or metaphorically, for being woman, or perceived as woman.

It wasn't ever an easy path to tread, whether certificated, or not, chosen or 'born into'

But like I say .

Welcome, all the same to the real world of women 💚👍🏼💜 🙄


Nice bit of circularity there..

Eh what? You've written that reply to me as if you are addressing a man. You do know that I'm not, right?

 

[winjim]

Fancy that! You've accidentally arrived back at the OP.

Phew, what a journey, I'm exhausted.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Phew, what a journey, I'm exhausted.

That was just the first lap. There's a few more times to go round yet.

 

[mudsticks]

Eh what? You've written that reply to me as if you are addressing a man. You do know that I'm not, right?

No no, you misunderstand.

I wasn't addressing you (aiui you're not a transwomen) I was slightly seriously, slightly lightheartedly addressing transwomen, and pointing out some of the realities of existing as woman..

Hence

"If transwomen feel they are expected to perform certain 'gender norms' in order to 'pass' as 'proper woman' and experience hassle if they don't, then I'm tempted to say

"Welcome to our World".

etc etc