Gender again. Sorry!

[mudsticks]

Perhaps he should have said 'cattiness' to be more inclusive. Some people self ID as 'dog people' others as 'cat people'. True story I've heard them say it.

It's interesting though how both those perjorative descriptions are used overwhelming about women when they're expressing distaste for an idea, or person though isn't it ??

We could add in 'shrewish' for good measure.

The negative 'male' equivalents that imply the same thing??

Where are they??
Bullish I suppose - but that implies go ahead stop at nothing strength..

Thought, very often follows language, which in turn follows thought.

Until we recognise that fact, we can't 'fix'

I'm definitely a Cat person btw.🐱🐱🐱
Thankfully so is SO

 

[Ian H]

It's interesting though how both those perjorative descriptions are used overwhelming about women when they're expressing distaste for an idea, or person though isn't it ??

We could add in 'shrewish' for good measure.

The negative 'male' equivalents that imply the same thing??

Where are they??
Bullish I suppose - but that implies go ahead stop at nothing strength..

Thought, very often follows language, which in turn follows thought.

Until we recognise that fact, we can't 'fix'

I'm definitely a Cat person btw.🐱🐱🐱
Thankfully so is SO

The subtler gendered insults are so embedded in many people's vocabulary that it takes a conscious effort to eradicate them. An easy way out is to not insult people, of course.

 

[monkers]

It's interesting though how both those perjorative descriptions are used overwhelming about women when they're expressing distaste for an idea, or person though isn't it ??

We could add in 'shrewish' for good measure.

The negative 'male' equivalents that imply the same thing??

Where are they??
Bullish I suppose - but that implies go ahead stop at nothing strength..

Thought, very often follows language, which in turn follows thought.

Until we recognise that fact, we can't 'fix'

I'm definitely a Cat person btw.🐱🐱🐱
Thankfully so is SO

Gay men face similar accusations too. Otherwise remember the once common reference to men as 'a big girl's blouse'?


Addendum

I'm Taurean, so therefore I'm a female bull. As a result I'm seen as 'stubborn' (negative). But if I was a male bull I'd be 'determined' (positive).

Perhaps if I try harder I can become a doggedly determined Taurean. That would be a strange looking beasty indeed.

 

[mudsticks]

The subtler gendered insults are so embedded in many people's vocabulary that it takes a conscious effort to eradicate them. An easy way out is to not insult people, of course.

Absolutely they are .



I once bothered to write a list of descriptors for strong voiced and minded woman, versus same of men.

I'll dig it out sometime.



But I expect you can imagine the perjorative gender skew.



It's ironic then that the beautifully non gendered .



Arshol



Is moderated out of our language, in favour of a subterranean legume 🙄.

Gay men face similar accusations too. Otherwise remember the once common reference to men as 'a big girl's blouse'?

And not just gay men
Any man showing dubious 'trad female' traits is much derided in some quarters still.

Thankfully that doesn't happen round these parts.
Generally it's much encouraged.

 

[Fab Foodie]

The subtler gendered insults are so embedded in many people's vocabulary that it takes a conscious effort to eradicate them. An easy way out is to not insult people, of course.

You are so right, I'd not even considered the connotations (especially considering the topic in-hand) when I was looking for an alternative word to nastiness in a hastily written post - no excuse.
Not insulting people is a very good idea.
Pointing-out people's errors in a polite manner is also a good thing.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I do have some sympathy with this but at the same time I can’t help hearing echoes of white patients demanding care from white nurses only.

It's male bodies that women often don't want to be around, and only at certain times and in certain situations. I would imagine someone who didn't want a black nurse would also not want a black plumber or a black player on their darts team, or a black person dating their child.

Women's need or desire to not be around men in certain situations and regardless of how they identify is not the same at all as holding a wholesale prejudice.

If you are making the argument that not wanting to be around male bodies is akin to racism - and presumably noone should be allowed to do it - then that would apply to all men surely, not just the ones who identify as women. Isn't it an argument for unisex everything? Changing rooms mixed, prisons mixed, no single sex care - because all these things are prejudiced against male bodies.

 

[icowden]

I do have some sympathy with this but at the same time I can’t help hearing echoes of white patients demanding care from white nurses only.

I can see what you mean. It's a difficult area to be sure.
For example, if you are very ill or unaware of what is happening, most of us wouldn't give a fig who was attending to our medical care as long as it is someone competent.

Once you are in recovery however, it becomes a bit harder. Some people are very sensitive about their intimate care, and will express a preference. Others won't. I think it also differs by gender. A lot of men wouldn't be at all bothered about their intimate care being delivered by a female nurse, and actually might be more bothered about it being delivered by a male nurse, whereas (I believe) women will tend to prefer intimate care being delivered by another woman.

If a patient feels strongly about only having a white Nurse they might actually get their wish accommodated if possible - even if it is just to spare the non-white nurses from the abuse they are likely to get.

Generally the NHS will try to accommodate the wishes of their patient whatever they might be, just so that the patient recovers and gets discharged.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's perfectly legal to exclude male bodies from certain spaces and in certain situations. Stonewall keep training companies and organisations that they musn't do this and yet one of their stated aims is to get rid of the Equality Act single sex exemptions. Why campaign against something that supposedly doesn't exist anyway?

 

[mudsticks]

I can see what you mean. It's a difficult area to be sure.
For example, if you are very ill or unaware of what is happening, most of us wouldn't give a fig who was attending to our medical care as long as it is someone competent.

Once you are in recovery however, it becomes a bit harder. Some people are very sensitive about their intimate care, and will express a preference. Others won't. I think it also differs by gender. A lot of men wouldn't be at all bothered about their intimate care being delivered by a female nurse, and actually might be more bothered about it being delivered by a male nurse, whereas (I believe) women will tend to prefer intimate care being delivered by another woman.

If a patient feels strongly about only having a white Nurse they might actually get their wish accommodated if possible - even if it is just to spare the non-white nurses from the abuse they are likely to get.

Generally the NHS will try to accommodate the wishes of their patient whatever they might be, just so that the patient recovers and gets discharged.

Something not being acknowledged (enough) here is the very possible cause of this aversion.

It's not just a case of being 'embaressed' or 'coy' around male bodied medical staff

Many many women, will have at some point in their lives suffer.physical abuse, and or the threat of same, from male bodied people.

Telling women that they have to accept physical care, from people who may trigger extreme anxiety in them, or else be deemed 'prejudiced' isn't actually fair.

 

[theclaud]

An easy way out is to not insult people, of course.

Steady on.

 

[mudsticks]

Steady on.

Well exactly , what would be the point of this place if we couldn't come here and trade a few insults??

Think of the ire it's saving our actual compadres from receiving.. 🤔

It would be nice to see a better class of barb now and then..

 

[theclaud]

It would be nice to see a better class of barb now and then..

 

[AuroraSaab]

If a patient feels strongly about only having a white Nurse they might actually get their wish accommodated if possible.

It's worth noting that it has always been the case that services like domestic violence refuges, rape counselling, medical examiners etc have always accommodated any victims preferences as much as they can, irrational or not.

Ngozi Fulani, who was in the news recently, runs Sistah Space. This charity is only for black women because there are times when people understandably need to only be around their own community, especially when feeling vulnerable or healing from trauma or illness.

There are quite rightly transgender only services. If a transwoman has been sexually assaulted, would it be 'echoes of only wanting a white nurse' for them to want to see a transgender counsellor rather than a non trans one?

 

[theclaud]

If you are making the argument that not wanting to be around male bodies is akin to racism

It's not that - it's more to do with the role of femininity in White Supremacy, whether that's the work someone like Keen does for heteronormativity and gender conservativism ["We've had man and woman and they've served us very well for a long time," said No Feminist Ever] or the long history of humiliating women (especially black women) in the name of gender verification in sport.

 

[monkers]

It's male bodies that women often don't want to be around, and only at certain times and in certain situations. I would imagine someone who didn't want a black nurse would also not want a black plumber or a black player on their darts team, or a black person dating their child.

Women's need or desire to not be around men in certain situations and regardless of how they identify is not the same at all as holding a wholesale prejudice.

If you are making the argument that not wanting to be around male bodies is akin to racism - and presumably noone should be allowed to do it - then that would apply to all men surely, not just the ones who identify as women. Isn't it an argument for unisex everything? Changing rooms mixed, prisons mixed, no single sex care - because all these things are prejudiced against male bodies.

I'm sorry AS but I am going to have to remind you that we have agreed that the Equality Act does not protect the characteristic of 'sex' on the basis of biology. It protects legal sex. If people wish to campaign to change the act then they must say so; however Self-Id is not a concern of the Equality Act; that is a concern of the 2004 Act.

Please listen to Mhari Black MP who explains this rather well and rather more eloquently than I.


View: https://youtu.be/4RaSCFH7L-E


I think @Newhouse made a comment in good faith. I think I understand his comment as not making a comparison between racism and transphobia, but suggesting that they share the feature of anxiety. I think the point is valid. Perhaps if we all proceed on the basis of trying to seek some agreement rather than a determination for a win?