Gender again. Sorry!

[newfhouse]

Yes, it's the theory that some Trans Women are inherently misogynistic in their view of women and how to live like a women. Dressing to look like a porn star for example, bilge like "Now that I'm living as a woman I cry a lot more". There is often a perception of "what a woman is" which does not gel with the lived experience of women. Some Trans Women are closer to David Walliams "I'm a lady" than the idea of being an actual woman.

I have met cis women that match those descriptions but the only trans woman I currently know is nothing like them. A small statistical sample, but it still makes me wonder about the relevance of your caricature.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Does that work? Asking for a friend with self-esteem issues.

Tell 'your friend ' they need to Man up a bit.

 

[Bromptonaut]

To describe them as women would be misogyny. That doesn't seem to bother you though. I think you are choosing to be wilfully blind to the consequences that result from saying 'men can be women' because you don't want to seem unkind to your friends. So you'll do whatever mental and linguistic gymnastics it takes to avoid that. And when it comes to stuff like prisons you'll put your head in the sand and say 'Not my problem'.

This is simply chucking women under the bus so you can feel good about yourself.

I cannot understand the bolded bit at all.

Heather is not and never was 'my friend'. She was a appointed by UK Ministers as a Member of a public body; I was employed in its Secretariat. At the time of appointment she was known by a male name and he/him. What we now call Gender Dysphoria was present in his teens but there was no outlet for it in the sixties and the marriage>kids line was followed. Only as a widower did he explain this together with the journey he had set out on - already taking hormones.

Subsequently had full surgery and has a Gender Recognition Certificate.

In my head it requires mental gymnastics not to see her as a woman.

Prisons are not my problem. Trans people, both ways, are a feature of modern life and dealing with them is an operational issue for Governors. Comparisons with Fry and Victorian mixed prisons don't help.

Sport is a special case as it raises the issue of advantage from bodies that have gone through male puberty. The Sports bodies will have to deal with it.

There's an old lawyer's joke about property specialists deep in argument over a point who realise that they're arguing from different premises and I suspect that's where you and I are.

Differing paradigms.

 

[matticus]

Prisons are not my problem.

So that's thousands of people who you don't care about (admittedly just 4,000 are women) - would be interesting to see you have that conversation face-to-face.

Trans people, both ways, are a feature of modern life and dealing with them is an operational issue for Governors.

So are they women or not? If they're not women, that does mitigate some of the problems created here ...

 

[matticus]

Does that work? Asking for a friend with self-esteem issues.

Would that be a valid defence in court? (also asking for a friend)

 

[AuroraSaab]

There are only 2 sexes. The female sex are oppressed because they are female. They are oppressed because of their sexed body. Women cannot identify out of this oppression by claiming to be something else. A girl in Afghanistan cannot say 'I'm a boy, let me go to school'. A girl in Africa cannot say 'Don't perform genital mutilation on me because I'm a boy'.

It's misogyny because it is the oppressor class (men) opting into the oppressed class (women). It is removing women's right to have a unique word to describe themselves. It is removing women's right to single sex spaces that were set up exactly because they are oppressed on the basis of their sex, not how they identify.

Can you understand why people got so upset about Rachel Dolezal, a white woman, pretending to be black for decades? Can you understand why many people would call pretending to be black when you aren't 'racist'?

That's how a lot of women feel about men who identify as women, especially when they displace women in sports, awards, scholarships etc.

Your colleague is no less a male than any other male on the planet. Regardless of hormones, surgery, pieces of paper .... they are, and will remain, male. How you view them is a matter for you, but it does not change reality.

The fact that you say 'Prisons aren't my problem' and 'The sports bodies will have to deal with it' just shows that you don't care about the wider issues. You don't care about how they affect women because it doesn't impinge on your life at all.

 

[winjim]

It's fine to not know. It's fine to say that you lack the necessary experience and expertise to offer an opinion. In fact it's laudable. Sometimes we need to defer to authorities and experts in their fields, otherwise all we have is a version of mob rule.

 

[newfhouse]

I’m not sure anyone gains from throwing around accusations of “not caring”. There are some really difficult to resolve clashes of rights, interests if you prefer, but shouldn’t we start, here at least, from the basis that most of us do care?

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's fine to not know. It's fine to say that you lack the necessary experience and expertise to offer an opinion. In fact it's laudable. Sometimes we need to defer to authorities and experts in their fields, otherwise all we have is a version of mob rule.

Here's one expert. Unfortunately there is a lot of ideological capture around this issue and people and institutions who should be talking common sense are either ignoring the science or afraid to speak out.

I would say women are experts in the field of knowing what a woman is. The vast majority of them don't think a man can be one and they want to keep single sex spaces. Are you willing to 'defer to their authority and expertise' in this field?

 

[winjim]

I'm not interested in cherry picking.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I’m not sure anyone gains from throwing around accusations of “not caring”. There are some really difficult to resolve clashes of rights, interests if you prefer, but shouldn’t we start, here at least, from the basis that most of us do care?

Much of this seems from people's inability to see the wider picture. We find it easy to empathise with individuals we know but harder to extend our empathy to people we don't know and circumstances we will never experience. I think saying 'Not my problem' is indicative of this.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm not interested in cherry picking.

That view is the standard scientific position on the matter so it's hardly cherry picking. Not deferring to experts then lol.

 

[winjim]

That view is the standard scientific position on the matter so it's hardly cherry picking. Not deferring to experts then lol.

Yes sorry I retract that, I was replying in a hurry, never a good idea. What I should have said was I'm not going to allow myself to get pulled into having this argument because the point I'm making is that really I don't have to.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You can do that for any issue though. You can say .... I don't understand the issues/it's too complicated/it's not really my problem.

'I don't have a position on climate change so I'll just carry on as I usually do because it doesn't affect me'.
'Boats sinking in the Channel? I don't have to take a view on that'.

You don't have to get pulled into the argument because it doesn't affect you. That's a bit of a luxury belief though isn't it? Lots of women don't have your option of 'sitting it out'.

(Edited for spelling)

 

[winjim]

This conversation flips and flops and zigs and zags and zooms about all over the place so much it gives me quite the headache, I'm glad I've made the decision only to participate in specific aspects of it.