How can politicians be held to account?

[classic33]

Last I heard one idea was to bring some form of existing ID with you and the card to the polling station.

That's not foolproof, but wouldn't need anyone to make special journeys or involve themselves in local administration.

You've just moved house, to one that's been vacant for a while. There's the usual amount of post on the floor, including utility bills and the polling card/ID of the person who lived there before you. You're still registered at your old address however. Or you may be the landlord, as was the case in Bradford one year.

 

[Bromptonaut]

It doesn't have to include a photo, although clearly that would make it more effective.

Maybe during the experiments a photo was not needed. However the Bill currently before Parliament will make law such that a "specified document" must include a photograph. Schedule 3 (15) (4) (1H).

 

[Bromptonaut]

It is widely accepted many child victims of Asian men got away with it for so long/for ever because some police forces found the topic too hot to handle.

Given the large number of Asian grooming gangs reported in the Press, I'm not sure what the 'something else' you say they are reporting refers to.

As an aside I think you've got your words the wrong way around; it was the men getting away with it not the child victims.

Something is not true merely because it is widely accepted. Is there actual evidence that the Police did as you say?

The point I think is that newspaper reports do not focus on the real facts. Grooming gangs may be an Asian phenomenon but so far as real world numbers for child sex abuse are concerned they're bit part players.

None of that reduces the impact on the victims but sexual abuse of children mostly takes place in families.

 

[mudsticks]

As an aside I think you've got your words the wrong way around; it was the men getting away with it not the child victims.

Something is not true merely because it is widely accepted. Is there actual evidence that the Police did as you say?

The point I think is that newspaper reports do not focus on the real facts. Grooming gangs may be an Asian phenomenon but so far as real world numbers for child sex abuse are concerned they're bit part players.

None of that reduces the impact on the victims but sexual abuse of children mostly takes place in families.

Home office investigation hold any water round these parts??

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xual-abuse-gangs-white-men-home-office-report

Turns out it is in fact rather racist
('squawking' notwithstanding)
to talk about 'asian' grooming gangs as if they're the most prevalent offenders, and that 'It's all common knowledge' that they're 'the worst of the bunch'.

Turns out it's a rather broad spectrum of practitioners..



But you wouldn't think so, from what gets reported would you.??

In fact elements of this whole conversation has a fair old whiff of Yaxley Lennon himself..

 

[Pale Rider]

Home office investigation hold any water round these parts??

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xual-abuse-gangs-white-men-home-office-report

Turns out it is in fact rather racist
('squawking' notwithstanding)
to talk about 'asian' grooming gangs as if they're the most prevalent offenders, and that 'It's all common knowledge' that they're 'the worst of the bunch'.

Turns out it's a rather broad spectrum of practitioners..



But you wouldn't think so, from what gets reported would you.??

In fact elements of this whole conversation has a fair old whiff of Yaxley Lennon himself..

That report is something of a score draw, given it says 'some studies' found the number of black and Asian offenders was disproportionately high.

Not to mention Nazir Afzal, the CPS lawyer who prosecuted one of the first of such gangs which came to public notice in Rochdale.

He says the report recognises the number of south Asian and British Pakistani offenders is disproportionately high in 'high profile' cases, whatever that means.

Add to that the widespread acceptance that some coppers went easy on complaints involving Asians for the worst possible reasons, the overall picture doesn't look too clever.

 

[mudsticks]

That report is something of a score draw, given it says 'some studies' found the number of black and Asian offenders was disproportionately high.

Not to mention Nazir Afzal, the CPS lawyer who prosecuted one of the first of such gangs which came to public notice in Rochdale.

He says the report recognises the number of south Asian and British Pakistani offenders is disproportionately high in 'high profile' cases, whatever that means.

Add to that the widespread acceptance that some coppers went easy on complaints involving Asians for the worst possible reasons, the overall picture doesn't look too clever.

High profile cases..

As in one's that were particularly highlighted for certain political ends perhaps.

As if to imply this is a thing that Asian men do, almost exclusively.

Whereas in truth the perpetrators come from all sorts of backgrounds.

It's all horrible , nobody comes out looking good.

But as even the report concludes it's the victims we need to concentrate on.

And that not just 'after the fact'
The most important part, is preventing young women and girls becoming victims in the first place.

The law needs to be in place as a deterrent for sure.

But this 'culture' of the use of women, and their bodies as 'playthings' for men, to exploit, is also part of the issue .

That attitude too is found across the board.

Plus the one that certain 'sorts' of girls are fair game, and are easier to groom / exploit.

If we don't do good education from early years , girls and boys, and address all that we don't have much chance of stamping it out.

 

[Pale Rider]

As an aside I think you've got your words the wrong way around; it was the men getting away with it not the child victims.

Oops.

The point I think is that newspaper reports do not focus on the real facts. Grooming gangs may be an Asian phenomenon but so far as real world numbers for child sex abuse are concerned they're bit part players.

Based on too many years spent watching this stuff go through Crown Courts, it's true to say the majority of cases involve single white males.

However, when an Asian case comes along, there may be 20, 30, or even more defendants, thus their offending tends to be in bulk, whereas white offending tends to piecemeal.

Very hard to say what the overall individual head count is.

Incidentally, the number of cases involving defendants of all colours has risen exponentially in the last 10 or 15 years.

Several barristers have told me they are heartily sick of prosecuting or defending such cases.

In common with most of us, they prefer a varied diet, whether that's professionally or what they have for dinner.

I'm always on the lookout for charges which I've rarely or never seen, such as cock fighting, not least because experience has shown readers like something unusual.

The cock fighting one caused some administrative difficulties for the court because no one could find a computer code for it.

A call to Court Service HQ in London produced a specially written code, and the almost inevitable north/south divide remark: "I always knew you lot up there are a bunch of savages."

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Returning to the title of the thread, when a government mounts direct attacks on accountability there is a severe limit to how much politicians can be held accountable. The recent saga of off-the-record WhatsApp commissioning springs to mind.

At first, in June, No 10 issued blank denials that private emails were used for Government business. Until they had to correct their story. Lord Bethell was a notably inappropriate WhatsApper. When The Good Law Project tried to obtain access to Bethell's phone which had been used for Government business, Bethell declared that the phone had been lost. Then, correcting his story, the phone was broken. His 3rd and latest version is that the phone had been passed on to a family member.

Anyhow, this fine upholder of Government accountability and transparent democracy was shuffled out of his ministerial role this week. I'd love to believe that this known, proven liar, was kicked out of government because he was a known, proven liar. But no, Johnson has simply removed Bethell from scrutiny, presumably hoping that he could distance his own government's involvement from examination.

So, as a net result, there appears to be some vestige of accountability, if only in terms of being removed from Government involvement.

I hope The Good Law Project continue to pursue Bethell in the courts. There are very few projects working to restore democracy that I regularly pay to support but GLP is one of them. And I commend them to all those that don't have a vested interest in this bunch of mediocre liars.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Returning to the title of the thread, when a government mounts direct attacks on accountability there is a severe limit to how much politicians can be held accountable. The recent saga of off-the-record WhatsApp commissioning springs to mind.

At first, in June, No 10 issued blank denials that private emails were used for Government business. Until they had to correct their story. Lord Bethell was a notably inappropriate WhatsApper. When The Good Law Project tried to obtain access to Bethell's phone which had been used for Government business, Bethell declared that the phone had been lost. Then, correcting his story, the phone was broken. His 3rd and latest version is that the phone had been passed on to a family member.

Anyhow, this fine upholder of Government accountability and transparent democracy was shuffled out of his ministerial role this week. I'd love to believe that this known, proven liar, was kicked out of government because he was a known, proven liar. But no, Johnson has simply removed Bethell from scrutiny, presumably hoping that he could distance his own government's involvement from examination.

So, as a net result, there appears to be some vestige of accountability, if only in terms of being removed from Government involvement.

I hope The Good Law Project continue to pursue Bethell in the courts. There are very few projects working to restore democracy that I regularly pay to support but GLP is one of them. And I commend them to all those that don't have a vested interest in this bunch of mediocre liars.

A little update on the above post and the Good Law Project:
In court yesterday, GLP got a judge to rule:

• Lord Bethell must provide a Witness Statement to the Court to explain - once and for all - what happened to his phone.
• Government needs to provide a Witness Statement to the Court explaining how they are going to ensure they recover all the necessary data from Bethell’s phone.
• In addition to coughing up Lord Bethell’s private emails, Government must also trawl Matt Hancock’s personal emails and WhatsApps for relevant information as to how these contracts came to be awarded with no competition.

 

[mudsticks]

So I
(and a lot of other people too)
contacted our mp about the refugee crisis, and said we wanted to see refugees welcomed in our area.

And asked that he didn't take any notice of people being nasty, or xenophobic.

He did release a statement just recently saying how he supported refugee resettlement in our area, he understood the Afghan crisis had caused a lot of problems, and would do what he could to help.

I know we could be all cynical, and say but yeah what is he actually doing??

And that we need to do more, that his government were complicit in the whole debacle..

But him even saying that, felt like something.


He could easily have said nothing at all..

 

[Milkfloat]

So I
(and a lot of other people too)
contacted our mp about the refugee crisis, and said we wanted to see refugees welcomed in our area.

And asked that he didn't take any notice of people being nasty, or xenophobic.

He did release a statement just recently saying how he supported refugee resettlement in our area, he understood the Afghan crisis had caused a lot of problems, and would do what he could to help.

I know we could be all cynical, and say but yeah what is he actually doing??

And that we need to do more, that his government were complicit in the whole debacle..

But him even saying that, felt like something.


He could easily have said nothing at all..

I am lucky mine actively campaigned to get more Afghan refugee families located in our area, first it was one family, then 3 and finally with some real pressure (not just from the MP) it moved to 25 families.
https://leamingtonobserver.co.uk/news/mp-matt-western-focused-on-afghan-crisis-31778/

 

[fozy tornip]

Oops.

[Better is rearing up on your hind legs in the manner of a hysteric. Ed.]

 

[icowden]

I am lucky mine actively campaigned to get more Afghan refugee families located in our area, first it was one family, then 3 and finally with some real pressure (not just from the MP) it moved to 25 families.

And just to double check - does that mean the local area now feels like a foreign country, and have they taken all the jobs?

If not, perhaps we could advertise to the more prurient shires that this doesn't actually happen...

 

[Milkfloat]

And just to double check - does that mean the local area now feels like a foreign country, and have they taken all the jobs?

If not, perhaps we could advertise to the more prurient shires that this doesn't actually happen...

Hopefully they all came with HGV licences and are out working to get us our fuel.