Israel / Palestine

[C R]

BBC reporting possible ceasefire/hostage deal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgjye15zdlo

We need a fingers crossed emogi

 

[Psamathe]

We need a fingers crossed emogi

And if they do negotiate a ceasefire does anybody believe it won't just be a repeat performance with the same players breaking the same negotiated ceasefire ...

And I do hope I'm wrong but ceasefire means end of Netanyahu's Government and is Netanyahu going to agree with that (or will there be off the record comments PM to selected Ministers "don't worry, I kept my fingers crossed behind my back ..."). Maybe history from those concerned have just made me too cynical.

 

[matticus]

The idea of a jewish state (even if it didn't involve the expulsion of the existing native population) is inherently racist and should not have been contemplated.

Do you mean in 1947? Or just generally?
(Genuinely want to know people's views - ideally from someone who thinks Jew in Europe got quite a bum deal around 1935-45 ...)

 

[Psamathe]

The idea of a jewish state (even if it didn't involve the expulsion of the existing native population) is inherently racist and should not have been contemplated.

Do you mean in 1947? Or just generally?
(Genuinely want to know people's views - ideally from someone who thinks Jew in Europe got quite a bum deal around 1935-45 ...)

(Personal view is) I don't like the idea of any state based around a religion. Causes all sorts of exclusionary issues, legal issues (where laws become based on religious beliefs), etc., etc., etc.

 

[C R]

Do you mean in 1947? Or just generally?
(Genuinely want to know people's views - ideally from someone who thinks Jew in Europe got quite a bum deal around 1935-45 ...)

Generally, and ethnostate is going to be exclusionary of others. From my point of view the zionist idea of turning Palestine into a jewish homeland is no less objectionable than the idea of a german lebensraum.

The bum deal (understatement of the milenium if there was one) that jews got un Europe throughout history is an orthogonal issue, and a European problem.

 

[Ian H]

Do you mean in 1947? Or just generally?
(Genuinely want to know people's views - ideally from someone who thinks Jew in Europe got quite a bum deal around 1935-45 ...)

At least part of the reason the Israeli state cam into being was the racist refusal of all Allied powers to allow any substantial settlements of Jews in their own countries, much as they'd cavilled at refugee Jews before WW2.

 

[matticus]

Generally, and ethnostate is going to be exclusionary of others. From my point of view the zionist idea of turning Palestine into a jewish homeland is no less objectionable than the idea of a german lebensraum.

The bum deal (understatement of the milenium if there was one) that jews got un Europe throughout history is an orthogonal issue, and a European problem.

I think exclusionary is quite an important word! Where do you see the line between a "homeland" for a specific entho/religious group and State Religion (something very common in 1st world countries, including some that are peacefully cosmopolitan).

[And where do you think your view takes us? I hate the phrase "we are where we are", but Israel HAS been created as a safe haven for jews. We can't really turn that back - they ain't gonna leave, no matter how much international pressure and/or missile cloud is thrown at them]

 

[BoldonLad]

(Personal view is) I don't like the idea of any state based around a religion. Causes all sorts of exclusionary issues, legal issues (where laws become based on religious beliefs), etc., etc., etc.

I share your view wrt a State based on a religion, but, I have never understood, is being a Jew a religious condition, or, an ethnic condition?

 

[Pblakeney]

I think exclusionary is quite an important word! Where do you see the line between a "homeland" for a specific entho/religious group and State Religion (something very common in 1st world countries, including some that are peacefully cosmopolitan).

[And where do you think your view takes us? I hate the phrase "we are where we are", but Israel HAS been created as a safe haven for jews. We can't really turn that back - they ain't gonna leave, no matter how much international pressure and/or missile cloud is thrown at them]

Can't be bothered to argue much further but the Jews did get a bad deal in WWII (obs) but two wrongs don't make a right.
The Israelis have Israel as a safe haven why can't they just stay there?

 

[Ian H]

I share your view wrt a State based on a religion, but, I have never understood, is being a Jew a religious condition, or, an ethnic condition?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law

 

[BoldonLad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law

I assume that was intended to answer my question?, but, sorry, all it does is to introduce more 'noise" by bringing "Nationality" into the equation. It would appear that people not of the Jewish Religion, may become Israeli Citizens, but, my reading is that does NOT make them Jews.

Perhaps I am just being dense, but, to me the sloppy use of the terms Jew, Israeli, (anti) semitism is part of the problem.

Indeed, reading the part "In the Israeli context, nationality is not linked to a person's origin from a particular territory but is more broadly defined. Although the term may be used in other countries to indicate a person's ethnic group, the meaning in Israeli law is particularly expansive by including any person practicing Judaism and their descendants", it is conceivable that many of us (including myself) are unknowingly Jewish, or, should that be Israeli? I would suspect that for many of us, it is impossible to know for certain that somewhere in our "family tree" if we are descended from a person practising Judaism.

 

[Ian H]

I assume that was intended to answer my question?, but, sorry, all it does is to introduce more 'noise" by bringing "Nationality" into the equation. It would appear that people not of the Jewish Religion, may become Israeli Citizens, but, my reading is that does NOT make them Jews.

Perhaps I am just being dense, but, to me the sloppy use of the terms Jew, Israeli, (anti) semitism is part of the problem.

Indeed, reading the part "In the Israeli context, nationality is not linked to a person's origin from a particular territory but is more broadly defined. Although the term may be used in other countries to indicate a person's ethnic group, the meaning in Israeli law is particularly expansive by including any person practicing Judaism and their descendants", it is conceivable that many of us (including myself) are unknowingly Jewish, or, should that be Israeli? I would suspect that for many of us, it is impossible to know for certain that somewhere in our "family tree" if we are descended from a person practising Judaism.

Aside from Israel, Jews can be considered to be largely an ethnic group for various reasons. Historically they were often subject to discriminatory laws regarding where they could live, mostly in ghettos, sometimes with curfews, and of course subject to occasional expulsions or massacres. Jews in general do not seek converts and mostly deprecate marriage outside Judaism ( this is probably mostly only true of strictly religious Jews these days). So for self-protection and religious reasons they have maintained close communities in many areas of the world.

 

[BoldonLad]

Aside from Israel, Jews can be considered to be largely an ethnic group for various reasons. Historically they were often subject to discriminatory laws regarding where they could live, mostly in ghettos, sometimes with curfews, and of course subject to occasional expulsions or massacres. Jews in general do not seek converts and mostly deprecate marriage outside Judaism ( this is probably mostly only true of strictly religious Jews these days). So for self-protection and religious reasons they have maintained close communities in many areas of the world.

Yes, I think I knew all that, but, thank you anyway.

 

[C R]

[And where do you think your view takes us? I hate the phrase "we are where we are", but Israel HAS been created as a safe haven for jews. We can't really turn that back - they ain't gonna leave, no matter how much international pressure and/or missile cloud is thrown at them]

And what should we do with the original inhabitants of Palestine, magic them away? It is a shıt sandwich of a situation sandwiched in shıt, and the ones with the least blame and greatest loss in this situation are the Palestinians.

 

[matticus]

And what should we do with the original inhabitants of Palestine, magic them away? It is a shıt sandwich of a situation sandwiched in shıt, and the ones with the least blame and greatest loss in this situation are the Palestinians.

This doesn't answer my question. Or indeed the one you first responded to! Still, I did try to have a discussion ...