Israel / Palestine

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Pblakeney

Senior Member
It's worth remembering this during the onslaught of BS.

"Iran was at the negotiating table before Israel's attack​

During his comments today, Trump said that Iran should have done more to negotiate a deal with the US over its nuclear programme.
"They should have made a deal," he said. "In the end they decided not to do it."
And earlier today he told reporters on the White House lawn: "Why didn’t [Iran] negotiate with me before – all this death and destruction? Why didn’t [Iran] negotiate?"
Iran had appeared at negotiation meetings about its nuclear programme before Israel's attacks on Friday, and further talks between Iran and the United States were scheduled for Sunday.
Tehran pulled out of the talks after the attack began, and has refused to re-engage while the attacks continue."
 
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Psamathe

Über Member
"They should have made a deal," he said. "In the end they decided not to do it."
I don't think he appreciates how complex these things are, how many nuances, consequences, perceptions, etc. His experience is real estate deals which can be quick and straightforward and he's just unable to realise how much more complex such negotiations are.

All even more complex when he has Israel who in practice won't accept any deal other than US dropping their big bombs where Israel tell them to.

Which maybe says it all about future prospects.

Ian
 

briantrumpet

Veteran
Relax, everything will be OK. The UK government has asked Israel to look into the matter.

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Psamathe

Über Member
Whilst I claim no expertise about Iran, to me I suspect there is more emotion than logic going on in Governments like US & Israel.

Iran is ruled by a regime not a person. Might be one person at the top but that person changes (has in the past and will in the future) and the regime continues. "Taking-out" the leader will just mean his understudy takes over maybe even more strongly motivated to resist.

We are repeatedly being told about Iran's network of terrorism across the world. Do these leaders think these sleeper cells will just sit and watch their leadership and country being destroyed by the country they are "sleeping" in? Or maybe this network of terrorism is just a figment of western leaders imagination ... if they exist then it should be of concern and if they don't exist our leaders have been lying to try and justify preemptive attacks.

Seems to me (based in part of what our politicians are telling us justifying their preemptive attacks) that one side escalating will likely cause the other side to escalate.

Ian
 
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Pblakeney

Senior Member
Whilst I claim no expertise about Iran, to me I suspect there is more emotion than logic going on in Governments like US & Israel.

Iran is ruled by a regime not a person. Might be one person at the top but that person changes (has in the past and will in the future) and the regime continues. "Taking-out" the leader will just mean his understudy takes over maybe even more strongly motivated to resist.

We are repeatedly being told about Iran's network of terrorism across the world. Do these leaders think these sleeper cells will just sit and watch their leadership and country being destroyed by the country they are "sleeping" in? Or maybe this network of terrorism is just a figment of western leaders imagination ... if they exist then it should be of concern and if they don't exist our leaders have been lying to try and justify preemptive attacks.

Seems to me (based in part of what our politicians are telling us justifying their preemptive attacks) that one side escalating will likely cause the other side to escalate.

Ian

I am constantly being reminded of WMD’s.
It is like a repeat of history.
 
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Psamathe

Über Member
I am constantly being reminded of WMD’s.
It is like a repeat of history.
And Israel's been bombing eg police stations so should the current regime collapse more likely to have a failure of law and order. But maybe that's what they want anyway eg they were bombing Syria just in case the new regime might have been unfriendly (and I guess they thought bombing them would ensure they were friendly).

Israel want regime change but there is no other regime to take over if they destroy the current one. So current regime collapses and what then? Nobody to replace them and ... what? No though going on by those attacking.

Must emphasise I'm not defending the current Iranian regime, but I also think that those doing and considering preemptive attacks don't really have a plan beyond dropping some bombs.

Ian
 
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First Aspect

Senior Member
Exactly this. If the US gets involved, there will be an uptick in terrorist activities, whether to shipping or other US interests, which will induce retaliation by the US and whoever else is stupid enough to be involved, and progressively the brambles will grow across the off ramp.
 
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Pblakeney

Senior Member
Must emphasise I'm not defending the current Iranian regime, but I also think that those doing and considering preemptive attacks don't really have a plan beyond dropping some bombs.
Exactly.
The Americans never appear to have an end game. Of any sort. Go in, blow sh!t up, and walk away.
 
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All even more complex when he has Israel who in practice won't accept any deal other than US dropping their big bombs where Israel tell them to.

Which maybe says it all about future prospects.

Ian
Which is fair to say if you ignore Iran's refusal to negotiate earlier and repeated threats towards Isreal and funding of proxies which haven been almost dismantled first.
i'm very sure Iran would have still laughed at Trump face if they weren't hit as hard as they have been and still are now when it comes to negotiations. Trump is now giving them the same treatment.

Whilst I claim no expertise about Iran, to me I suspect there is more emotion than logic going on in Governments like US & Israel.

Iran is ruled by a regime not a person. Might be one person at the top but that person changes (has in the past and will in the future) and the regime continues. "Taking-out" the leader will just mean his understudy takes over maybe even more strongly motivated to resist.
the Khamerei is the central person and also an important detail the regime is crumbling, they had they very voilently hit down protest not so long ago. It's unlikely those voices of unrest have just died down, it more likely they instead are now on groups with encrypted messaging and such, it's not without reason the regime shuts of the internet.


We are repeatedly being told about Iran's network of terrorism across the world. Do these leaders think these sleeper cells will just sit and watch their leadership and country being destroyed by the country they are "sleeping" in? Or maybe this network of terrorism is just a figment of western leaders imagination ... if they exist then it should be of concern and if they don't exist our leaders have been lying to try and justify preemptive attacks.
Or you fail to understand how the ''intelligence community'' and covert operations work. And i'm not claiming i do either but it's far more complicated then ''they attack the motherland we must avenge!!''
Seems to me (based in part of what our politicians are telling us justifying their preemptive attacks) that one side escalating will likely cause the other side to escalate.

Ian
Seems abit weird if the bombs are already dropping right? and the western response so far seems call to de-escalate but no-one except maybe North-korea siding with Iran, Russia and China condemn the attacks but fail to fully side with Iran.

And Israel's been bombing eg police stations so should the current regime collapse more likely to have a failure of law and order. But maybe that's what they want anyway eg they were bombing Syria just in case the new regime might have been unfriendly (and I guess they thought bombing them would ensure they were friendly).
Or make way for an different ''regime''
Israel want regime change but there is no other regime to take over if they destroy the current one. So current regime collapses and what then? Nobody to replace them and ... what? No though going on by those attacking.
I think lets say a month ago before their attack on Iran nobody would have had expected them pull off an attack like this, not only have they ttacked Iran but they have done so very effectively but also if you look at the amount of intel they must have had, i'm convinced they have an answer waiting for your ''what then'' question


Must emphasise I'm not defending the current Iranian regime, but I also think that those doing and considering preemptive attacks don't really have a plan beyond dropping some bombs.

Ian
Agreed alltough i do think there is a bit more behind it, just not (yet) for our eyes.
 

Psamathe

Über Member
Which is fair to say if you ignore Iran's refusal to negotiate earlier ...
You mean the negotiations they've been having over the last couple of months with more meetings scheduled for eg this Sunday. Or maybe the agreement that was negotiated years ago that Trump tore-up (that all commentators agree would have stopped Iran's nuclear program from being anywhere near it is today).

Negotiations are complex and take time as it's somewhat more that "Unconditional surrender" - which in itself is meaningless. What does an "unconditional surrender" mean, that Government stops weapons developemnt in which case what inspections, what verifications, by whom with what powers, when with what constraints, etc. Or does Netanyahu get to govern the entire country, what does this "surrender" mean?
Or make way for an different ''regime''
What regime would that be then? All various experts interviewed (and there are quite a few from various research institutes, etc.) seem to be saying there is nobody "waiting in the wings" in any position to take over.

etc., etc.

Ian
 
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