No Shamima Begum Thread?

[ebikeerwidnes]

The government has not, and isn't obliged to, present all the evidence it has against Begum so it's possible they have evidence that she took a more active role in terrorism than she claims. It might be withholding this info so it can be used to charge Begum if she returns.

There might also be other reasons to withhold that information - for example if revealing it might point out "information sources" that they do not want revealing
or - as you say - to keep information aside so it can be used in a trial if one ever happens
All the information we have at the moment is either from her - or her point of view - or from unreliable sources
of course she may be considered an unreliable source herself as well - but.....

So we are basically making comments based on limited information - a lot of which is unreliable

 

[qigong chimp]

So we are basically making comments based on limited information - a lot of which is unreliable

Cue celestial chord of tear-inducing sweetness. Observe space itself gleam with a never before seen cast of light.

I had not thought that it would be like this.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So we are basically making comments based on limited information - a lot of which is unreliable

Yep. There are articles which mention allegations that Begum made suicide bomb jackets so I do think the government will be holding back info in case they want to charge her with something later. I think she cuts a less sympathetic figure that some others but it's a very different case to Rhianon Rudd.

 

[Ian H]

It's nothing to do with whether Begum is good or bad, guilty or trafficked. The question is whether the UK should take responsibility for its own citizens and deal with them in its own courts, or abdicate all responsibility and leave her as a problem for the rest of the world.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

It's nothing to do with whether Begum is good or bad, guilty or trafficked. The question is whether the UK should take responsibility for its own citizens and deal with them in its own courts, or abdicate all responsibility and leave her as a problem for the rest of the world.

It's not just an uk policy, it's just that Begum likes to play the media, probably has her real life soap planned out for if she would be allowed back in maybe has plans for her own youtube channel ''which head is in this bin'' or ''which infidel burns in this hell'' or similar. or maybe it would just be sewing tips or something.

But other european countries have done exactly the same if they can refuse someone because they have a double nationality they strip it. and than they are in the same situation. they just don't get on the telly..

But if we accept that the concept of nationality is either acquired or given in the country you or you parent have been born, and we accept that because national and international laws say so, we also accept the conditions in which it can be taken away, what is wrong with the fact that we actually take it away if an line is crossed? If we don't what's the use of the option to revoke a nationality?

Also what is wrong with an international tribunal? I think that would and should have been a far better option at the time a few years back when Isis was coming down. Yedizi's still don't have justice for what has been done to them, a international tribunal would at least have tried to accomplish that.

But no it seems always to be the case in europe to help terrorist/criminals/robbers/rapist first victims maybe later.

 

[theclaud]

maybe has plans for her own youtube channel ''which head is in this bin'' or ''which infidel burns in this hell'' or similar.

OMG it's only just occurred to me that Dutchie thinks he's funny.

 

[Ian H]

It's not just an uk policy, it's just that Begum likes to play the media, probably has her real life soap planned out for if she would be allowed back in maybe has plans for her own youtube channel ''which head is in this bin'' or ''which infidel burns in this hell'' or similar. or maybe it would just be sewing tips or something.

But other european countries have done exactly the same if they can refuse someone because they have a double nationality they strip it. and than they are in the same situation. they just don't get on the telly..

But if we accept that the concept of nationality is either acquired or given in the country you or you parent have been born, and we accept that because national and international laws say so, we also accept the conditions in which it can be taken away, what is wrong with the fact that we actually take it away if an line is crossed? If we don't what's the use of the option to revoke a nationality?

Also what is wrong with an international tribunal? I think that would and should have been a far better option at the time a few years back when Isis was coming down. Yedizi's still don't have justice for what has been done to them, a international tribunal would at least have tried to accomplish that.

But no it seems always to be the case in europe to help terrorist/criminals/robbers/rapist first victims maybe later.

Begum does not hold any other nationality. Begum’s father resides in Bangladesh and her mother is believed to be a Bangladeshi national, and the U.K. government has argued that under Bangladeshi law, this means Begum is automatically a citizen of the country as well. However, Begum previously told the BBC that she only had “one citizenship.” “I wasn’t born in Bangladesh, I’ve never seen Bangladesh and I don’t even speak Bengali properly, so how can they claim I have Bangladeshi citizenship,” she said.

Bangladesh’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirmed that Begum is not a Bangladeshi citizen, that she had never applied for dual nationality with Bangladesh, and that she had never visited the country. In a statement in 2019, it said that it was “deeply concerned” that Begum had been “erroneously identified” as a Bangladeshi national.
https://time.com/6257433/shamima-begum-british-citizenship-appeal/

 

[Milzy]

Even if she was groomed she’s still dangerous so shouldn’t be allowed back. Good day.
This thread is closed.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Even if she was groomed she’s still dangerous so shouldn’t be allowed back. Good day.
This thread is closed.

If she's dangerous then, if she's in the UK, the State has means to deal with that by way of various powers.

She was deprived of her citizenship by a man who, at the time, had ambitions to lead his party and issued the order depriving her of citizenship so as to catch the Morning papers.

Nonetheless, there is apparently no procedural impropriety and the courts are reluctant to/restrained from looking into the actual facts that led to the order being made. The question of whether she was rendered stateless was examined at length. Both she and HMG called experts on the subject and HMG's wiped the floor with hers. That decided she's no second bite at the cherry.

 

[spen666]

If she's dangerous then, if she's in the UK, the State has means to deal with that by way of various powers.

She was deprived of her citizenship by a man who, at the time, had ambitions to lead his party and issued the order depriving her of citizenship so as to catch the Morning papers.

Nonetheless, there is apparently no procedural impropriety and the courts are reluctant to/restrained from looking into the actual facts that led to the order being made. The question of whether she was rendered stateless was examined at length. Both she and HMG called experts on the subject and HMG's wiped the floor with hers. That decided she's no second bite at the cherry.

If she can get leave to appeal to the Supreme Court she will get another bite at said cherry

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

It's nothing to do with whether Begum is good or bad, guilty or trafficked. The question is whether the UK should take responsibility for its own citizens and deal with them in its own courts, or abdicate all responsibility and leave her as a problem for the rest of the world.

Exactly


and - while I'm here
some people are STILL saying she had dual nationality
she has never had any nationality other than British and hence she is our problem and we should not dump her on a country than has a whole load of other problems just because we are more powerful

If we can;t deal with her then something is badly wrong with our systems - because there will be far worse then her around!

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Begum does not hold any other nationality. Begum’s father resides in Bangladesh and her mother is believed to be a Bangladeshi national, and the U.K. government has argued that under Bangladeshi law, this means Begum is automatically a citizen of the country as well. However, Begum previously told the BBC that she only had “one citizenship.” “I wasn’t born in Bangladesh, I’ve never seen Bangladesh and I don’t even speak Bengali properly, so how can they claim I have Bangladeshi citizenship,” she said.

It's not about what she claims.

Bangladesh’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirmed that Begum is not a Bangladeshi citizen, that she had never applied for dual nationality with Bangladesh, and that she had never visited the country. In a statement in 2019, it said that it was “deeply concerned” that Begum had been “erroneously identified” as a Bangladeshi national.

https://time.com/6257433/shamima-begum-british-citizenship-appeal/

there have been what 3 appeals or something now? if she is so sure she hasn't got a blanladeshi nationality maybe get a formal refusal? Instead of contacting all kinds of media and now i really have no energy going down all those nationality laws etc. Three different uk courts approve the stripping of her nationaliy, maybe all those judges are wrong and you Ian H on an cycling from is correct but for some reason i think their grounds(the courts etc) are just a bit stronger.

Exactly


and - while I'm here
some people are STILL saying she had dual nationality
she has never had any nationality other than British and hence she is our problem and we should not dump her on a country than has a whole load of other problems just because we are more powerful

there are many more in similar circumstances who also have had their nationality stripped in many European countries, why should we keep on accommodating chances for those that choose an ideology that hates us from giving them those chances?

If we can;t deal with her then something is badly wrong with our systems - because there will be far worse then her around!

Bataclan, Manchester, the various attacks in France, the half failed attacks in the Netherlands, some attackes in Germany Should i continue? There is something wrong with our systems,they are not made to cope with this kind of people as our systems are based on freedom, punishment and recovery, whilst these ideology's are build on destruction, death and extreme oppression

 

[AuroraSaab]

If the legal argument is that the Bangladeshi government automatically confer joint citizenship upon the offspring of Bangladeshis who were born there and are full citizens, then whether Begum has ever been there or spoken the language isn't relevant to that. Legally, is she is the citizen of another country as well as the UK? The UK government are taking advantage of that fact that she seems to be.

There are obviously 2 different aspects to the case, the legal and the moral. It's also obvious that the government aren't going to give any weight to the moral argument as to concede this case would set a precedent for others in the same position, most of whom were not groomed as children and/or who may be known to have committed atrocities. Of 900 people who went to Syria, around 200 remained unaccounted for. Some of them will be in the same position as Begum.

 

[Ian H]

It's not about what she claims.

Try reading what I posted.

Bangladesh’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirmed that Begum is not a Bangladeshi citizen, that she had never applied for dual nationality with Bangladesh, and that she had never visited the country. In a statement in 2019, it said that it was “deeply concerned” that Begum had been “erroneously identified” as a Bangladeshi national.
https://time.com/6257433/shamima-begum-british-citizenship-appeal/

 

[icowden]

Bataclan,

All 9 attackers were killed. 7 during the attacks, two during raids following the attacks.

Manchester,

Salman Abedi is dead. His brother is now in prison unable to aid any further attacks. We know where he is. There were failures in intelligence due to underfunding and lack of resources.

There is something wrong with our systems,they are not made to cope with this kind of people as our systems are based on freedom, punishment and recovery, whilst these ideology's are build on destruction, death and extreme oppression

Our systems cope perfectly well. Terrorists who have committed an atrocity are usually either dead or in prison. We use international intelligence to track known dissidents. It's easier to do that when you know where people are and what they are doing. Shamina Begum is more of a threat outside of the UK than within it, and of more use to ISIS where she is than if she were in the UK being used as bait or to gain intelligence.

The decision to remove her nationality was pushed through by an onanistic moron who wanted favourable headlines. It had no basis in intelligence or in a desire to protect the UK.