Non-binary: What do you understand it to mean?

[Bromptonaut]

Speaking as a male, I think it would be rather presumptuous of me to suggest to women whether or not they should have an issue with that scenario.

I'm intrigued as to what the issue really is. Once understood it can be managed.

The one time I was working with somebody undergoing male/female transition the women were fine about it. It was a bloke who got his pants in a knot.

 

[AuroraSaab]

But I'm not a guy, despite how I look. There are days when I feel like one, but there are also days when I feel very feminine, so I dress and behave according to how I feel.

What does 'feeling feminine' mean? How do you 'dress and behave' like a guy or dress and behave 'feminine' without reference to traditional stereotypes? What are all these things other than stereotypes about what people (especially women) should wear or how they should act?

Women have spent decades trying to dismantle notions of how women should act and dress. People should be free to dress how they like without any notions of femininity or masculinity being attached to it; but performing femininity by dressing/acting stereotypically does not make you a woman, anymore than not performing it makes you a man.

Gender roles and notions of femininity and masculinity are sexist and regressive. We should be getting rid of them not reinforcing them. On certain occasions your sex matters. Everything else is personality and personal expression.

 

[AuroraSaab]

What exactly is the issue for the 'Ladies'?

The new arrival goes into the cubicle, locks the door, does what needs to be done, unlocks and walks out.

Hopefully they wash their hands.

That's fine if the cubicle opens into the main building, like disabled loos do. If not, single sex spaces are needed for women's privacy and safety.

 

[icowden]

That's fine if the cubicle opens into the main building, like disabled loos do. If not, single sex spaces are needed for women's privacy and safety.

And I think that's where the disconnect is. If you ask a man about the loos, we will straight away say - "well just make them unisex, what's the problem?". Most men couldn't care less if women come into the mens toilets to use a cubicle. We just aren't bothered. We are not in the position of ever having to really consider our own safety in the way that women are.

This is an interesting article which conveys well the difference of viewpoint that women have towards the public toilet:-
https://restlessnetwork.com/the-magic-of-womens-loos/

There was also a nice segment in Dave Chapelle's recent "controversial" Netflix special where he talks about Trans people using their gender preferred toilet and points out that a Trans woman being made to use a urinal in a men's toilet is really not safer than the same using a cubicle in a women's toilet. The harder part is that he skips the reverse argument.

 

[Fab Foodie]

I think what we need here is a CC flow-diagram for who can use what facilities under what circumstances.
I don't think a Venn diagram's gonna cut-it....

 

[Deleted member 28]

What exactly is the issue for the 'Ladies'?

The new arrival goes into the cubicle, locks the door, does what needs to be done, unlocks and walks out.

Hopefully they wash their hands.

Let me think, a Man walking around in the Women's changing room/toilets?

Maybe some might be uncomfortable and that if they were in the middle of getting changed a Man in there wouldn't be welcome?

 

[Deleted member 28]

I think what we need here is a CC flow-diagram for who can use what facilities under what circumstances.
I don't think a Venn diagram's gonna cut-it....

How about this for an Idea, Men go in the Men's and Women go in the Women's.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The discussion always seems to end up being reduced to where people should pee, when really that is the most easily resolvable issue. Most women would be happy with Male, Female, and a unisex third space. Many trans people seem ok with it too. It's the trans rights activists who reject the 'third space' solution to single sex spaces, whether it's toilets, domestic violence refuges, hospital wards, or prisons.

 

[Deleted member 28]

The discussion always seems to end up being reduced to where people should pee, when really that is the most easily resolvable issue. Most women would be happy with Male, Female, and a unisex third space.

Not when a unisex changing room isn't available and the Women just have to put up with someone who 'feels like being a Woman' on that day.

If there is one then I agree, no big deal.

What happens when 'Mr 6'1", covered in tat's and scars' is feeling 'Feminine' and fancies trying a twin set on in the Ladies changing rooms at M&S, do the Women have to put up with him strutting round like something out of the rocky Horror show or can they expect him to respect their feelings?

 

[Bromptonaut]

Do you understand the difference and do you feel society is more accepting of the differences now than when you were a teenager?

Do you know anywho who identifies as non-binary? Do you see how that choice impacts their day-to-day life and is it positive (creating informative discourse about gender and identity) or negative (people willfully refusing to accept their choice and "labelling" them anyway)?

Interested to hear your thoughts and experiences.

I've been aware of trans more or less from my teens (I'm now 61) but non-binary is something I've only come heard of in the last 10 years, perhaps less. My children - 27 and 29 - seem to have just accepted it as part of life's tapestry. I'm wholly liberal about such things myself. My main career was in the Civil Service where there was training for all and LGBT etc support groups for those with skin in the game. As I've related before I worked in an Advisory NDPB (ie Quango) where a Member (Ministerial Appointee) who was male transitioned to female. They were quite open about what they were doing. I guess at the time (early noughties) they were in their early sixties and relatively recently widowed. Apparently they'd been uncomfortable in the male gender in youth/young adulthood. Without support or the possibility of acceptance he married and had children. His wife knew but struggled with the concept and only after being widowed was he able to 'come out'.

Career #2 after redundancy at 54 is in the charitable sector. Nobody in my local outfit is even gay but there's extensive LGBT support and a number of folks in our Workplace (Facebook for business group) are trans or non binary. We're encouraged to have our preferred pronouns in our profile even when they're exactly what you'd expect. I've come across articles in the legal press by 'Crash Wigley' who's pronouns are them/they (but will live with she) - they've written quite a bit about the subject of pronouns and how we should all say what we prefer.

My son has a friend he's known since they were at Nursery together who is biologically male but has long been openly 'bi' and dressing androgynously. Alex now identifies as non binary (they/them) and is AFAIU in transition to female. He's relatively recently married (son was best man) and they're very much sticking together; she must have known what she was taking on. Son is very supportive of his friend and has had several run ins with people he and Alex were at school with who misgender and/or ridicule.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Personally, in regard to single sex spaces it doesn't bother me whether a man performs femininity or not. Whether they look stereotypically feminine or masculine is irrelevant because it's a privacy and safety issue, and it's males who are the risk, regardless of how they look or whether they 'pass'. We don't know which ones are dangerous, so we exclude all males from these spaces, regardless of how they are dressed or how they identify.

 

[swansonj]

Not when a unisex changing room isn't available and the Women just have to put up with someone who 'feels like being a Woman' on that day.

If there is one then I agree, no big deal.

What happens when 'Mr 6'1", covered in tat's and scars' is feeling 'Feminine' and fancies trying a twin set on in the Ladies changing rooms at M&S, do the Women have to put up with him strutting round like something out of the rocky Horror show or can they expect him to respect their feelings?

If this forum is going to survive, unmoderated, I think a little more respect for other people's feelings might be called for all round. The impression your post leaves with me is that you have consciously decided to be gratuitously offensive to another forum member.

 

[Bromptonaut]

If this forum is going to survive, unmoderated, I think a little more respect for other people's feelings might be called for all round. The impression your post leaves with me is that you have consciously decided to be gratuitously offensive to another forum member.

^^^^^^

That, exactly.

 

[Pale Rider]

After being told by a twenty-something that I had somewhat confused transgender and non-binary,

Nothing more annoying than a twenty something who thinks they know it all.

Did you fill him/her to eff off?

That would have been a more valuable life lesson for them, although I doubt they would have grasped it.

 

[cookiemonster]

What are you then if not a 'Guy'?

I'm genuinly intrigued.

As a 6ft3 gay guy, I'm intrigued too.