Non-binary: What do you understand it to mean?

[Bromptonaut]

Nothing more annoying than a twenty something who thinks they know it all.

On this particular subject I'd wager they're likely to know more than you or I do.

 

[stowie]

After being told by a twenty-something that I had somewhat confused transgender and non-binary, I did some reading and realise why. I also realised that sex, gender, sexuality and identity seemed to have become a more open, but equally more complex tapestry than when I was a teenager; although I doubt things were much different then, just that I was simply less aware. Today's teenagers seem much more informed, open and accepting.

Do you understand the difference and do you feel society is more accepting of the differences now than when you were a teenager?

Do you know anywho who identifies as non-binary? Do you see how that choice impacts their day-to-day life and is it positive (creating informative discourse about gender and identity) or negative (people willfully refusing to accept their choice and "labelling" them anyway)?

Interested to hear your thoughts and experiences.

My daughter (13 and a bit) is far more clued up than me. It seems to be viewed as a natural part of life. Whereas growing up in the '90s it was even difficult for people to come out as gay.

I cannot profess to begin to understand the complexities of the issue around facilities or other contentious issues and therefore tend to stay away from commenting. As a middle aged white male, I accept my life experiences don't equip me to have any expertise in the issue.

I have only known a couple of trans people in my life. Both from work life, and it was clear in both cases that they had suffered both with internal mental struggles about who they were and externally with prejudice and abuse. It didn't seem like an easy route to navigate, so I am always a bit confused on the argument that allowing trans people into women's facilities would suddenly open the floodgates to lots of tattooed, hairy, straight alpha males donning female underwear to gain access. But I refer to my paragraph above. I have no experience from either category to make a reasoned argument either way.

 

[Pale Rider]

On this particular subject I'd wager they're likely to know more than you or I do.

No doubt, certainly in my case, but are they any the wiser for it?

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm intrigued as to what the issue really is. Once understood it can be managed.

The one time I was working with somebody undergoing male/female transition the women were fine about it. It was a bloke who got his pants in a knot.

Can you really not see that there are issues with redefining what the word 'woman' means (which is what in effect you do when you give transwomen access to women's single sex spaces)? Or obvious issues around privacy and safeguarding? All being done without women's consent.

Huge difference between allowing access, out of kindness, to a work colleague that you know, and allowing any male into all single sex spaces. I'm sure your female co-workers might have felt differently if they were undressing in swimming changing rooms with their daughters and an unknown male was changing next to them.

 

[AndyRM]

What does 'feeling feminine' mean? How do you 'dress and behave' like a guy or dress and behave 'feminine' without reference to traditional stereotypes? What are all these things other than stereotypes about what people (especially women) should wear or how they should act?

Women have spent decades trying to dismantle notions of how women should act and dress. People should be free to dress how they like without any notions of femininity or masculinity being attached to it; but performing femininity by dressing/acting stereotypically does not make you a woman, anymore than not performing it makes you a man.

Gender roles and notions of femininity and masculinity are sexist and regressive. We should be getting rid of them not reinforcing them. On certain occasions your sex matters. Everything else is personality and personal expression.

I don't disagree with any of this.

Clothes are clothes. I'm not "performing". I'm dressing as I choose to, and there are days when I feel more feminine than others. I don't claim to be a woman, because I'm not. But I am non-binary,

 

[AndyRM]

On these days would you insist on using Female toilets and would you be dressed as a Man or a Woman?

I would use the gents.

I am not a woman, and I would not want to make anyone feel unsafe.

 

[AndyRM]

Not when a unisex changing room isn't available and the Women just have to put up with someone who 'feels like being a Woman' on that day.

If there is one then I agree, no big deal.

What happens when 'Mr 6'1", covered in tat's and scars' is feeling 'Feminine' and fancies trying a twin set on in the Ladies changing rooms at M&S, do the Women have to put up with him strutting round like something out of the rocky Horror show or can they expect him to respect their feelings?

You know what? F*ck you, badly.

I do my best to respect the attitudes and feelings of everyone, but the way you present on this forum is just f*cked up.

And yeah, that's rude. I know it is. But I don't care.

You've literally insulted how I feel about myself.

So again, f*ck you, badly.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I am always a bit confused on the argument that allowing trans people into women's facilities would suddenly open the floodgates to lots of tattooed, hairy, straight alpha males donning female underwear to gain access. But I refer to my paragraph above. I have no experience from either category to make a reasoned argument either way.

The fact is that it allows access to all males, regardless of how they look. They wouldn't need to be dressed in a stereotypically female manner. 'Facilities' includes changing rooms, hospital and mental health wards, prisons. This is the whole issue with self id.

To be honest guys, I am endlessly perplexed by the number of you who say you can't see the problems or that you have no experience of the matter so you can't comment. I think it just shows the huge gulf between the way women experience the world and the way men experience it.

Women are oppressed on the basis of their sexed bodies, not their gender identity. Allowing men to identify into the female sex category eliminates women's ability to campaign for their specific needs because it turns being a woman into a feeling in your head. Women can't opt out of their oppression, but men can opt in if they fancy it:

 

[Fab Foodie]

If this forum is going to survive, unmoderated, I think a little more respect for other people's feelings might be called for all round. The impression your post leaves with me is that you have consciously decided to be gratuitously offensive to another forum member.

Well said.

 

[Fab Foodie]

As a 6ft3 gay guy, I'm intrigued too.

I'm clearly too short to qualify....

 

[Fab Foodie]

The fact is that it allows access to all males, regardless of how they look. They wouldn't need to be dressed in a stereotypically female manner. 'Facilities' includes changing rooms, hospital and mental health wards, prisons. This is the whole issue with self id.

To be honest guys, I am endlessly perplexed by the number of you who say you can't see the problems or that you have no experience of the matter so you can't comment. I think it just shows the huge gulf between the way women experience the world and the way men experience it.

Women are oppressed on the basis of their sexed bodies, not their gender identity. Allowing men to identify into the female sex category eliminates women's ability to campaign for their specific needs because it turns being a woman into a feeling in your head. Women can't opt out of their oppression, but men can opt in if they fancy it:

View attachment 187

To be fair, that's just upselling a Balaclava.....

 

[icowden]

How about this for an Idea, Men go in the Men's and Women go in the Women's.

So how comfortable are you at the urinal when a woman walks in, goes to the urinal next to you, hitches up her skirts and produces male paraphernalia?

What about when she produces female anatomy post surgery - does she still need to use the urinal and reverse onto it? Are you happy for her to use the cubicle unchallenged? Is she safe in the men's toilet?

It's not always possible to identify a trans woman vs a biological woman (and vice versa for Trans men).
This is what makes the issue complex.

How do you help those who are Trans but keep women safe and preserve their rights. At the moment discussion tends to get violently shut down, which doesn't help things progress.

 

[Pale Rider]

You know what? F*ck you, badly.

I do my best to respect the attitudes and feelings of everyone, but the way you present on this forum is just f*cked up.

And yeah, that's rude. I know it is. But I don't care.

You've literally insulted how I feel about myself.

So again, f*ck you, badly.

How you obtain your women's clothing is a fair question, and you did say you were happy to discuss how you live your life.

To take the sting out of it, let's say I wanted a dress for a fancy dress costume or to do the Great North Run.

The obvious thing to do would be to go to a shop selling (outsize) ladies' clothing.

How would I get on if I wanted to try something on before buying?

The other, presumably female, shoppers might not be too keen on a bloke shuffling in and out of the changing rooms.

I suppose I would just buy the garment without trying it on and hope for the best.

 

[Deleted member 28]

So how comfortable are you at the urinal when a woman walks in, goes to the urinal next to you, hitches up her skirts and produces male paraphernalia?

What about when she produces female anatomy post surgery - does she still need to use the urinal and reverse onto it? Are you happy for her to use the cubicle unchallenged? Is she safe in the men's toilet?

It's not always possible to identify a trans woman vs a biological woman (and vice versa for Trans men).
This is what makes the issue complex.

How do you help those who are Trans but keep women safe and preserve their rights. At the moment discussion tends to get violently shut down, which doesn't help things progress.

I wouldn't care less, might raise an eyebrow but you've missed the point, it's the Men going into the Women's space that's in question here, not the other way round.

I doubt many want to go into the Men's as by virtue of what they're doing suggests they want to be a Woman?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Gay and gender non conforming men have used the Gents for 150 years - often at risk to their safety. Despite this risk they have never campaigned for access to women's spaces in the way trans activists have.

It's really not women's jobs to give up their spaces in order to shield gender non conforming men from male violence, nor to allow access in order to validate their identity.