matticus
Legendary Member
Yes - but conditioning others to confirm to them should stop.
(so you can continue to dress as a cowboy OR a French Maid if you want. Or both!)
Non-binary: What do you understand it to mean?
- Thread starter Banderill
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(so you can continue to dress as a cowboy OR a French Maid if you want. Or both!)
AuroraSaab
Pharaoh
My view is that they are free to do so, although some more radical feminists do regard men wearing stereotypically sexualised female clothing as offensive. I know some women regard stuff like RuPaul's Drag Race as akin to performing blackface.
I'm suggesting an ungendered world as something we could be working towards, because it benefits all of us, not something you can or should impose.
Your post does raise the question of whether a man dressed as a woman is 'displaying his own cultural stereotype' though, or appropriating another group's.
Either way, I think we all know that the issue is not about what you wear. It's about whether adopting these expressions of gender, and having a feeling in your head, should allow you access to the spaces set up specifically for the privacy and safety of women and girls. I would say not.
matticus
Legendary Member
Now, this raises a further question: is this "appropriation" always a bad thing? Does it depend on context, for example?
Should we just work towards a world where everyone can enjoy reggae, or dresses, or man-caves, or Dire Straits ... without criticism. Why keep shoring up the walls between us? Where is John Lennon when we need him?
Archie_tect
Active Member
Just imagine- what a wonderful world that would be.
BoldonLad
Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
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Sounds fantastic, but, I am I alone in finding it odd to find such sentiments on a forum where the "raison d'être" appears to be to disagree with and even insult others?
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Rusty Nails
Country Member
Please. No-one mention "Melting Pot" or "Ebony and Ivory". Terrible, mawkish syrup, every one.
Archie_tect
Active Member
Correct answer is yes... or possibly no.Sounds fantastic, but, I am I alone in finding it odd to find such sentiments on a forum where the "raison d'être" appears to be to disagree with and even insult others?
swansonj
Regular
The following is a genuine question to which I do not know the answer and would like to learn more.
How far is the way we each think actually determined by biological sex via hormones? How far do male and female brains differ in terms of structure and functioning because of different exposure to androgens and estrogens during development? How far is this thing about anger being masculine and empathy feminine, and all the other stereotypes, just cultural conditioning and how far does it have a starting point in biological realities?
matticus
Legendary Member
Sorry - I'm still pretty new hereSounds fantastic, but, I am I alone in finding it odd to find such sentiments on a forum where the "raison d'être" appears to be to disagree with and even insult others?
AuroraSaab
Pharaoh
I think it does depend on context. Les Dawson and Roy Barraclough doing their 'Cissie and Ada' routine was an affectionate mockery of working class women by 2 (originally) working class men. Sexualised charactures of women in Drag Race; not so affectionate.
I think in years to come we will look back on stuff like Drag Race and cringe a bit.
(Edited for spelling).
Rusty Nails
Country Member
In years to come?
I watched ten minutes of it one night last week to see what all the fuss about it was. Absolutely awful.
AuroraSaab
Pharaoh
Well neuro scientists like Gina Ripon say there are very few biological differences between male and female brains, and the differences have no discernible effect. ie. It's nurture, not nature. (Ref The Gendered Brain book).
Simon Baron-Cohen thinks there is a distinction. He thinks men are geared up to think in a 'systemised' way and women are geared up to think in an 'empathised' way. (I'm massively simplifying, and there is no suggestion that one type of brain is better than the other). He cites autism as being an example of what an extreme male brain is like.
Ripon would say that these differences are due to how we treat boys and girls differently. Parents talk to girl babies more and encourage social play like dolls tea parties, so they develop empathy whereas boys are encouraged to play games that require spatial awareness etc so they develop these types of skills.
Obviously things like testosterone affects levels of aggression and sex drive, but I haven't read anything that is convincing proof of a distinct male and female brain. I certainly reject the 'born in the wrong body' narrative that Mermaids and Stonewall pushed for a long time. There's no 'lady brain'. Nobody is born in the wrong body. How could you be? It makes no sense.
AndyRM
Elder Goth
I dunno about Drag Race, it's clearly caricatures and not intended to cause offence; people know it's an act.
Yep, hyper-sexualised no doubt but the creativity that goes into the costumes and their dancing is pretty impressive, to me at least.
It's always been a 'thing', hell the panto dame is usually a man and nobody seems to bat an eyelid at that.
Yep, hyper-sexualised no doubt but the creativity that goes into the costumes and their dancing is pretty impressive, to me at least.
It's always been a 'thing', hell the panto dame is usually a man and nobody seems to bat an eyelid at that.
AuroraSaab
Pharaoh
Well, yeah, I feel like that but many people love it. But then I found Little Britain cringey and patronising and people still rave about that.
AuroraSaab
Pharaoh
I think panto dames are usually affectionate characatures of a motherly character though. Even Danny LaRue was more gently mocking.
Minstrel shows were a thing too, for a long time, and you could admire the singing and dancing in those. We don't any longer though. We look back and think, 'Wow. That was a stereotypical characture of a whole group. It's racist as f**k. What on earth were we thinking?'.
