Non-binary: What do you understand it to mean?

[matticus]

I think panto dames are usually affectionate characatures of a motherly character though. Even Danny LaRue was more gently mocking.

Minstrel shows were a thing too, for a long time, and you could admire the singing and dancing in those. We don't any longer though. We look back and think, 'Wow. That was a stereotypical characture of a whole group. It's racist as f**k. What on earth were we thinking?'.

I'd like to pick apart the Minstrels thing - whilst stressing that I'm too young to have properly witnessed the phenomenon. So presumably the song/dance aspect wasn't a problem; why was it not affectionate? What were the negative aspects?

(I recently heard some Lenny Henry interviews where he mentions being a Minstrel. He's not very positive about it! Guess it was the only work he could get at the time. But he doesn't give specifics - perhaps he felt they're obvious.)

 

[Rusty Nails]

I dunno about Drag Race, it's clearly caricatures and not intended to cause offence; people know it's an act.

Yep, hyper-sexualised no doubt but the creativity that goes into the costumes and their dancing is pretty impressive, to me at least.

It's always been a 'thing', hell the panto dame is usually a man and nobody seems to bat an eyelid at that.

When I was a kid in the Welsh valleys in the 1950s a friend of my mum's was a transvestite/drag artist who used to do his act in the local working mens' clubs. He used to come round our house on a Saturday evening for my mum to put his make up on for him.

His day job was a bin man and, although we kids never thought about it, life must have been very difficult for him back in those days.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'd like to pick apart the Minstrels thing - whilst stressing that I'm too young to have properly witnessed the phenomenon. So presumably the song/dance aspect wasn't a problem; why was it not affectionate? What were the negative aspects?

(I recently heard some Lenny Henry interviews where he mentions being a Minstrel. He's not very positive about it! Guess it was the only work he could get at the time. But he doesn't give specifics - perhaps he felt they're obvious.)

I don't think it's the singing and dancing. It's the make up - it's a white person wearing make up that is a characature of what (some) black people look like. It's the taking of physical features of an oppressed group (black people), and exaggerating them, and it's the fact that it's done by, and primarily for, the entertainment of the group that oppresses them (white people).

You could say Eddie Murphy or Martin Lawrence have done the same in their films, but they are black themselves and there is an element of affection in their portrayals.

I saw a photo the other day of a pre war holiday parade in a German town where people in fancy dress. Some were dressed as characatures of Jews. I'm not saying the B and W Minstrels on BBC 1 is the same thing but it's good that we don't do that stuff anymore.

 

[AndyRM]

I think panto dames are usually affectionate characatures of a motherly character though. Even Danny LaRue was more gently mocking.

Minstrel shows were a thing too, for a long time, and you could admire the singing and dancing in those. We don't any longer though. We look back and think, 'Wow. That was a stereotypical characture of a whole group. It's racist as f**k. What on earth were we thinking?'.

Is it not just drag of a different though? It's a bloke in a dress and makeup singing. Sure, drag queens sex it up but personally I think they've just taken it to a different level than a panto dame, it's just an act.

 

[PK99]

So how comfortable are you at the urinal when a woman walks in, goes to the urinal next to you, hitches up her skirts and produces male paraphernalia?

What about when she produces female anatomy post surgery - does she still need to use the urinal and reverse onto it? Are you happy for her to use the cubicle unchallenged? Is she safe in the men's toilet?

It's not always possible to identify a trans woman vs a biological woman (and vice versa for Trans men).
This is what makes the issue complex.

How do you help those who are Trans but keep women safe and preserve their rights. At the moment discussion tends to get violently shut down, which doesn't help things progress.

You seem to assume that all men use the stand-up urinal. Many use the cubicles for urination wanting more privacy.

 

[Ian H]

Well neuro scientists like Gina Ripon say there are very few biological differences between male and female brains, and the differences have no discernible effect. ie. It's nurture, not nature. (Ref The Gendered Brain book).

Simon Baron-Cohen thinks there is a distinction. He thinks men are geared up to think in a 'systemised' way and women are geared up to think in an 'empathised' way. (I'm massively simplifying, and there is no suggestion that one type of brain is better than the other). He cites autism as being an example of what an extreme male brain is like.

Ripon would say that these differences are due to how we treat boys and girls differently. Parents talk to girl babies more and encourage social play like dolls tea parties, so they develop empathy whereas boys are encouraged to play games that require spatial awareness etc so they develop these types of skills.

Obviously things like testosterone affects levels of aggression and sex drive, but I haven't read anything that is convincing proof of a distinct male and female brain. I certainly reject the 'born in the wrong body' narrative that Mermaids and Stonewall pushed for a long time. There's no 'lady brain'. Nobody is born in the wrong body. How could you be? It makes no sense.

I doubt that the nurture v nature argument will ever be resolved, and I doubt there is a simple answer. But, if male & female brains are different, I suspect it would be more in the way of tendencies along a spectrum than any hard-edged distinctions. Also, as your final paragraph hints, we are more than just our brains.

My impression is that societal changes influence upbringing, which in turn influences behaviour.

 

[PK99]

Well neuro scientists like Gina Ripon say there are very few biological differences between male and female brains, and the differences have no discernible effect. ie. It's nurture, not nature. (Ref The Gendered Brain book).

Simon Baron-Cohen thinks there is a distinction. He thinks men are geared up to think in a 'systemised' way and women are geared up to think in an 'empathised' way. (I'm massively simplifying, and there is no suggestion that one type of brain is better than the other). He cites autism as being an example of what an extreme male brain is like.

Ripon would say that these differences are due to how we treat boys and girls differently. Parents talk to girl babies more and encourage social play like dolls tea parties, so they develop empathy whereas boys are encouraged to play games that require spatial awareness etc so they develop these types of skills.

Obviously things like testosterone affects levels of aggression and sex drive, but I haven't read anything that is convincing proof of a distinct male and female brain. I certainly reject the 'born in the wrong body' narrative that Mermaids and Stonewall pushed for a long time. There's no 'lady brain'. Nobody is born in the wrong body. How could you be? It makes no sense.

ie Science working as it should. Baron-Cohen's work on autism is particularly interesting.

Ideas of Male brain vs Female brain are (IMO) misguided, as they emphasize central differences. A better picture is of overlapping distributions with slight shifts of the Median/Mode on certain characteristics - leaving the vast majority in the central common-ground. But of course, it is at the extremes of overlapping distributions (3 or 4 sigma from the mean) that things get interesting and differences show.

 

[Rusty Nails]

The BBC has quit the Stonewall diversity scheme:


https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...heme-impartiality-concerns-transgender-issues

 

[AndyRM]

The BBC has quit the Stonewall diversity scheme:


https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...heme-impartiality-concerns-transgender-issues

Oh well, I guess I'll not be renewing my TV license then.

 

[AuroraSaab]

ie Science working as it should. Baron-Cohen's work on autism is particularly interesting.

Ideas of Male brain vs Female brain are (IMO) misguided, as they emphasize central differences. A better picture is of overlapping distributions with slight shifts of the Median/Mode on certain characteristics - leaving the vast majority in the central common-ground. But of course, it is at the extremes of overlapping distributions (3 or 4 sigma from the mean) that things get interesting and differences show.

I'd probably agree, though the question is obviously whether these differences on scans are actually meaningful in terms of how they affect our thoughts and behaviour. They don't scan babies and children's brains (for obvious reasons), but if I recall correctly, Ripon's argument is that differences in adult M and F brains on scans could be accounted for by cultural conditioning. She also makes the point that all brains vary and differences between male and female brains are no greater than the differences between individual male brains. There's a good discussion between Ripon and Baron Cohen on You Tube which covers their basic views.

Cordelia Fine has written a couple of books on gender and the brain and thinks Baron Cohen over reaches and draws conclusions that there simply isn't enough evidence for.
https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-23/edition-11/battle-sex-differences

 

[AuroraSaab]

The BBC has quit the Stonewall diversity scheme:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...heme-impartiality-concerns-transgender-issues

Not surprised. The diversity champion scheme does compromise the impartiality of institutions like the BBC and government departments. I can't think of any other charity that has had such influence and been above criticism for so long.

My impression is that some in the gay community haven't felt represented by Stonewall since they redefined same sex attraction as 'same gender attraction'.

This was compounded the other week after the fuss about the BBC article on lesbians feeling pressured into sex with transwomen. Stonewall's CEO said if lesbians exclude transwomen from their dating pool it's because they are influenced by society's prejudices against trans people. Whereas most people would say it's because lesbians aren't interested in penises.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Just imagine- what a wonderful world that would be.

Dunno much about binary, dunno
much about equalateeee….

 

[AndyRM]

Not surprised. The diversity champion scheme does compromise the impartiality of institutions like the BBC and government departments. I can't think of any other charity that has had such influence and been above criticism for so long.

My impression is that some in the gay community haven't felt represented by Stonewall since they redefined same sex attraction as 'same gender attraction'.

This was compounded the other week after the fuss about the BBC article on lesbians feeling pressured into sex with transwomen. Stonewall's CEO said if lesbians exclude transwomen from their dating pool it's because they are influenced by society's prejudices against trans people. Whereas most people would say it's because lesbians aren't interested in penises.

I would tend to agree. Particularly with your second two points. I wouldn't say I'm part of a 'gay community' as such, but I do have several friends who've felt let down by that.

And the last comment was very unhelpful, from Nancy Kelly, not you!

 

[Fab Foodie]

Well, yeah, I feel like that but many people love it. But then I found Little Britain cringey and patronising and people still rave about that.

You’re not alone….

 

[Archie_tect]

Dunno much about binary, dunno
much about equalateeee….

I love you too.