Population decline

[multitool]

Here's an interesting visualisation of the demographic data around population growth/decline and migration

https://www.theguardian.com/world/n...isis-see-how-your-country-compares-visualised

The uncomfortable truth is that many European countries (including ours) will turn into vast old people's homes with nobody to either care for them or pay for them...without migration

 

[CXRAndy]

Because everyone is despondent about their country. Youth have very poor expectations.

Adding more migrants is going to help the British young adults have children

 

[bobzmyunkle]

will turn into vast old people's homes with nobody to either care for them or pay for them...without migration

They'll die off eventually. Maybe you could start a more nuanced debate. Unless you're just winding up the troll

 

[Psamathe]

Whilst I wouldn't claim to have all the answers (or even some) my underlying attitude is that the population of the world is too high. Too many people causing issues we seem unable to address.

Specifically UK/west does have an issue with population demographics but that is of our making and the solution might cost, might affect our standard of living but we are starting from a pretty high standard compared to much of the world.

We need to adjust the mismanagement that is aggravating the challenges we face regarding demographgics. eg older people bed blocking in NHS hospitals because our care services are in a dire state (and still Labour are only focusing on NHS rather than including care).

I tend to discriminate between where the population comes from (native born, immigration, refugee). Most are people, all pretty much seeking the same thing so treat everybody as people and drop this daft "nationalism".

Maybe part of our (UK & west) problems is our obsession of "growth" which on a highly populated planet with limited resources is unsustainable. Drop to -0.1% growth and it's economic disaster, redundancies, food banks overstretched (OK they are already overstretched), etc. To me an economic system dependent on growth and inflation is unsustainable.

(That said I'm no economist and welcome alternative views to consider and maybe change my own thoughts).

Ian

 

[Beebo]

I studied human geography at uni 30 years ago. This was an issue then, but it’s happening faster than was previously predicted.
But I believe that Market forces will overcome this issue once the need for immigration overcomes the racism.
Also the push factors of climate change will keep people coming to Europe.

Japan are already ahead of us, and don’t have a history of immigration. China are also suffering after their one child policy.

 

[multitool]

They'll die off eventually. Maybe you could start a more nuanced debate. Unless you're just winding up the troll

Jeez. Another great contribution from Bob.

 

[multitool]

I studied human geography at uni 30 years ago. This was an issue then, but it’s happening faster than was previously predicted.
But I believe that Market forces will overcome this issue once the need for immigration overcomes the racism.
Also the push factors of climate change will keep people coming to Europe.

Japan are already ahead of us, and don’t have a history of immigration. China are also suffering after their one child policy.

China and India's population are going to decline. The growth hot-spot is, IIRC, Nigeria.

 

[Ian H]

They'll die off eventually. Maybe you could start a more nuanced debate. Unless you're just winding up the troll

Yeah, but there are more of us arriving at old age than departing from it. And we're mostly too old to breed.

 

[Psamathe]

But I believe that Market forces will overcome this issue once the need for immigration overcomes the racism.

I'm unsure. Two potential difficulties:
1. Need for immigration is not evenly spread across the population. What if the racists in society don't need the immigration whilst those who welcome others do?

2. I'm uncertain about "Market Forces". Market Forces can be skewed by other factors and don't necessarily work in the best interests of humanity. eg vested interests influence politicians who perpetuate damaging systems even giving tax subsidies to damaging practices.

Ian

 

[Ian H]

How Spain’s radically different approach to migration helped its economy soar​

As immigration has increased, GDP has surged and unemployment has fallen to lowest level since 2008
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...approach-to-migration-helped-its-economy-soar

 

[icowden]

Whilst I wouldn't claim to have all the answers (or even some) my underlying attitude is that the population of the world is too high. Too many people causing issues we seem unable to address.

This is perfectly valid. The issue isn't about reducing the world's population which would be a good thing, its about the way our society is structured. Historically there were always more working people than pensioners. It therefore made sense that the NI contributions made by workers today, paid for the pensions and care of the pensioners today. The NI you pay isn't ring fenced for "you" it's used for your mum/dad/ grandparents etc.

However, with improvements in healthcare and changes in working practices, instead of dropping down dead the year after retirement, people are going on to live for many more years. As an illustration of polar opposites, my grandfather died at 65, the year he retired. My grandmother died at 103, some 43 years after she retired. She milked that final salary pension for all it was worth.

So as the working population reduces, there is less money to pay for the aging population which is becoming much greater than the number of people able to support it. The only way to balance that is either to reduce pensions & care payments which is very unpopular, or to increase NI and taxes to pay for it - or to increase the population by welcoming immigrants (especially if there are job roles where we have a shortage of workers).

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Yeah, but there are more of us arriving at old age than departing from it. And we're mostly too old to breed.

What does a sustainable imitation policy look like? And how are you going to sell it to the masses before the populist right takes over? Is there a limit to immigration or are we just going to carry on concreting the green belt (and quite a few flood plains)?

The only way to balance that is either to reduce pensions & care payments which is very unpopular, or to increase NI and taxes to pay for it

Crazy idea, I know, but what about taxing Bezos? What about introducing rules regarding foreign ownership of UK infrastructure?

Maybe part of our (UK & west) problems is our obsession of "growth" which on a highly populated planet with limited resources is unsustainable.

Do we want growth? If so who benefits from it? Let's produce more stuff so foreign companies can make more profit.

Jeez. Another great contribution from Bob

Sorry didn't want to divert you from your discussion on Vichy France.

 

[Psamathe]

Crazy idea, I know, but what about taxing Bezos? What about introducing rules regarding foreign ownership of UK infrastructure?

Unsure. I see it as an effective way to get rid of these parasites, to put them, in their rockets and send them off to some distance planet so we're rid of them forever.

But Bezos is showing no signs of seeking his fortune on Pluto so maybe taxing him or his companies, even just a tiny bit is a good plan B.

Ian

 

[CXRAndy]

The only way to balance that is either to reduce pensions & care payments which is very unpopular, or to increase NI and taxes to pay for it - or to increase the population by welcoming immigrants (especially if there are job roles where we have a shortage of workers).

Let older people continue to work to supplement their pension. They pay a little extra tax, helps the system

There are still many jobs older folk can do

Keeps them fitter, engaged with society. Less old age medical interventions


Sets an example for the young, you're never too old.

Needs radical change

 

[multitool]

You heard it hear first. CXR thinks the elderly should never retire.

Doesn't know the difference between 'less' and 'fewer'.