Reform, and the death of the Tory Party

[icowden]

You call it gaming loopholes: others call it applying the law sensibly so as not pay more than is necessary. See also my post above about the case law point - i.e. that there is no legal or moral obligation for a taxpayer to pay more than is required by law.

No others call it exploiting the law to avoid paying taxes. A created government scheme to give people a small tax break is not the same as effectively defrauding the government of tax that should have been paid because your expensive accountant found a loophole.

And if you are going to do the latter don't pretend to be a UK loving patriot, just go fark yourself instead.

 

[laurentian]

. . . there is no legal obligation to pay more than the law stipulates - and according to the case law where this was established, no moral obligation either. Especially as HMRC will generally not be shy about getting you to pay more if they can.

Yeah, you keep saying this and, as mentioned above, WE ALL KNOW!

There's no legal obligation for me to return a supermarket trolley to the designated place, I can legally just leave it in the parking bay next to my car, it just makes me a bit of a dick.

 

[First Aspect]

Isn't the Tice thing just going to boil down to whether he was using a tax avoidance scheme the HMRC have specifically identified as such? Otherwise it's just legally avoiding tax, and it'll be water off a dick's back.

 

[C R]

There's no legal obligation for me to return a supermarket trolley to the designated place, I can legally just leave it in the parking bay next to my car, it just makes me a bit of a dick.

See, and that's the problem with society, if we all were less considerate we would all be super billionaires and society would work better, or something.

 

[Stevo 666]

No others call it exploiting the law to avoid paying taxes. A created government scheme to give people a small tax break is not the same as effectively defrauding the government of tax that should have been paid because your expensive accountant found a loophole.

And if you are going to do the latter don't pretend to be a UK loving patriot, just go fark yourself instead.

There you go again, making assumptions about loopholes and 'exploiting the law'. And where legal definitely isn't defrauding. It is usually just sensible tax planning given a highly complex area where it is easy to make a costly mistake. The only difference between tax breaks you mention and the planning that you disapprove of is that you like one but not the other. Your moral viewpoint here is irrelevant.

 

[Stevo 666]

Yeah, you keep saying this and, as mentioned above, WE ALL KNOW!

There's no legal obligation for me to return a supermarket trolley to the designated place, I can legally just leave it in the parking bay next to my car, it just makes me a bit of a dick.

So why are you still going on about it if you know?

 

[Stevo 666]

Isn't the Tice thing just going to boil down to whether he was using a tax avoidance scheme the HMRC have specifically identified as such? Otherwise it's just legally avoiding tax, and it'll be water off a dick's back.

As I've said before, if there is a case to answer then I'm sure HMRC will get onto it. So far all we have is an accusation from a Labour MP, and we can probably guess the motivation behind that given how Labour see Reform as an electoral threat.

It will be interesting to see if it is investigated.

 

[CXRAndy]

You can speculate, but people who built substantial wealth usually don't achieve that by saying to parties they deal with 'help yourself mate, take as much as you like'. I guess you'd need to ask him.

Although technically he is correct, there is no legal obligation to pay more than the law stipulates - and according to the case law where this was established, no moral obligation either. Especially as HMRC will generally not be shy about getting you to pay more if they can.

That said, there is a way for people to voluntarily pay more tax if they really want to help and/or virtue signal. I wonder if anyone on here puts their money where their mouth is?

I bet they don't. I had a long time friend from years back. Christian and general do good for charity, always preaching on about giving more when you can afford to.

Got themselves a good well paid job, soon as he realised what he could do with his money, nice house, car clothes, the generous side faded away.

 

[Stevo 666]

I bet they don't. I had a long time friend from years back. Christian and general do good for charity, always preaching on about giving more when you can afford to.

Got themselves a good well paid job, soon as he realised what he could do with his money, nice house, car clothes, the generous side faded away.

It's more that a lot of people bang on about 'paying more tax' but seem rather reluctant to do it themselves. The moral tax crusaders should be putting their money where their mouth is.

 

[Shortfall]

To the people criticising Tice I would ask, can you afford to pay more tax? And I'd the answer is Yes, what's stopping you? If you're making this about morality then in a country where people are sleeping rough, where kids are going hungry and when the health service can't treat people in a timely manner is it moral for you to take a foreign holidays or two every year and run a swanky car ? I'm just wondering where you draw the line and who decides or is it just because you fücking hate Tice and this is a convenient stick to beat him with?

 

[CXRAndy]

It's more that a lot of people bang on about 'paying more tax' but seem rather reluctant to do it themselves. The moral tax crusaders should be putting their money where their mouth is.

They never do.

Same for all those take in an immigrant luvvies. Soon as they are confronted, they all live in a one bed rented flat

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

Nice attempt to divert. I notice you're not countering the point I made above.

I was absolutely countering your point. Your point is that for right wing politicians whom you agree with, it is fine for them to commit unethical acts as long as it is not illegal. For left wing politicians, whom you disagree with, it is completely disgraceful for them to commit an unethical act, even if it is legal.

That's the line you take whenever a right winger gets caught with their pants down Stevo 😂

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

To the people criticising Tice I would ask, can you afford to pay more tax? And I'd the answer is Yes, what's stopping you? If you're making this about morality then in a country where people are sleeping rough, where kids are going hungry and when the health service can't treat people in a timely manner is it moral for you to take a foreign holidays or two every year and run a swanky car ? I'm just wondering where you draw the line and who decides or is it just because you fücking hate Tice and this is a convenient stick to beat him with?

Can you afford to pay more? Do you mean are people minimising their tax? I pay all taxes owed, as does my business and have never sought to minimise any tax burden.

I also spent 15 years working for charities, worked with 200 ex offenders, unemployed youth and care leavers and raised £5million for education and employment programmes. I also volunteer as an Independent Visitor.

The likes of Tice bang on about being patriots and being for the good of the people whilst demonstrating a spectacular contempt for them.

I put my money where my mouth is so to speak and the majority of people I have worked and volunteered with are left and liberal, politically speaking. I suspect that not many members of Reform are volunteering in soup kitchens or homeless shelters on their weekends.

 

[Shortfall]

Can you afford to pay more? Do you mean are people minimising their tax? I pay all taxes owed, as does my business and have never sought to minimise any tax burden.

I also spent 15 years working for charities, worked with 200 ex offenders, unemployed youth and care leavers and raised £5million for education and employment programmes. I also volunteer as an Independent Visitor.

The likes of Tice bang on about being patriots and being for the good of the people whilst demonstrating a spectacular contempt for them.

I put my money where my mouth is so to speak and the majority of people I have worked and volunteered with are left and liberal, politically speaking. I suspect that not many members of Reform are volunteering in soup kitchens or homeless shelters on their weekends.

What you're doing is commendable. I still don't think it validates criticism of Tice by people who are using his tax affairs to attack him because they think his politics makes him a cúnt.

 

[Rusty Nails]

There is a big difference between exploiting a technical loophole that lets someone get around tax laws and a tax avoidance scheme like ISAs deliberately set up by governments to encourage and reward a level of savings/investments.

The first involves looking for a technicality that lets one legally circumvent an obligation to pay tax, the second one is not circumventing any rules.

I understand that some people have no qualms about looking for and exploiting such loopholes, that's the nature of some, but at the same time wish HMRC would be a bit more efficient and diligent in clearing them up. I suspect some people have more contacts with and influence on politicians than Joe Public when it comes to tax affairs.