Reform

[Stevo 666]

As a Remainer, I would have to disagree, we should have stayed in (what was basically a sound idea), and, worked to make it better, rather than throwing our toys out of the pram and whingeing on the sidelines. 😂

I think we left partly because we got tired of trying to make it better and not getting anywhere. That and the point about freedom of choice and EU scope creep - I've said before that if the EU had kept to the original brief of just being a trading bloc then we would not have left.

 

[icowden]

I think we left partly because we got tired of trying to make it better and not getting anywhere.

No, we left because a small group of people saw an opportunity to make a lot of money by scaring people. This group used blatant lies and media control to convince people that they would be better off because they didn't care how hard those people got shafted as long as it made money for hedge fund owners, newspaper barons etc.

 

[Stevo 666]

No, we left because a small group of people saw an opportunity to make a lot of money by scaring people. This group used blatant lies and media control to convince people that they would be better off because they didn't care how hard those people got shafted as long as it made money for hedge fund owners, newspaper barons etc.

Both sides were guilty of misinformation etc in the run up to the referendum. They didn't call the Remain campaign Project Fear for nothing.

 

[icowden]

They didn't call the Remain campaign Project Fear for nothing.

No - they called it that because it was excellent propaganda and reverse psychology. Most of the predictions by the Remain campaign were founded in research and have manifested.

Let's compare notes:
Leave:

• £350m a week for the NHS - Didn't happen. Turned out to be a lie that that much money was being spent on Europe.
• Turkey will join the EU and 77 million Turks will come to the UK- didn't happen and there is no prospect of it happening.
• UK holds all the cards in negotiations with the EU: It didn't, it doesn't and every negotiation involved the UK capitulating. Most deals were significantly worse. Fishing and farming have been devastated. Billions have been spent on preparations and software changes to cope with new customs and new defra funding routes. The free trade deal was supposed to be easy. It wasn't.
• UK will be able to strike great new trade deals: Very few have been done and most have been rubbish
• Brexit will not mean leaving the single market: We did

Remain:

• Immediate Economic Shock of Leave: Didn't happen immediately, but has happened gradually instead with the UK being worse off by many billions of pounds. It was warned there would be a £30bn black hole. This appeared about 7 years later when the final deals ended.
• Threat to peace in Europe: Yeah - this one was bollocks, but it came from Cameron so what do you expect?
• Back of the Queue for US Trade: Yep, pretty much happened although Trump likes to dangle it like a carrot. Not the UK in control though

 

[Stevo 666]

No - they called it that because it was excellent propaganda and reverse psychology. Most of the predictions by the Remain campaign were founded in research and have manifested.

Let's compare notes:
Leave:

• £350m a week for the NHS - Didn't happen. Turned out to be a lie that that much money was being spent on Europe.
• Turkey will join the EU and 77 million Turks will come to the UK- didn't happen and there is no prospect of it happening.
• UK holds all the cards in negotiations with the EU: It didn't, it doesn't and every negotiation involved the UK capitulating. Most deals were significantly worse. Fishing and farming have been devastated. Billions have been spent on preparations and software changes to cope with new customs and new defra funding routes. The free trade deal was supposed to be easy. It wasn't.
• UK will be able to strike great new trade deals: Very few have been done and most have been rubbish
• Brexit will not mean leaving the single market: We did

Remain:

• Immediate Economic Shock of Leave: Didn't happen immediately, but has happened gradually instead with the UK being worse off by many billions of pounds. It was warned there would be a £30bn black hole. This appeared about 7 years later when the final deals ended.
• Threat to peace in Europe: Yeah - this one was bollocks, but it came from Cameron so what do you expect?
• Back of the Queue for US Trade: Yep, pretty much happened although Trump likes to dangle it like a carrot. Not the UK in control though

The US trade deal claim is definitely bollox now. In fact, it was only possible because we had left...

A quick google should give you a longer list of Remain claims, for example:
https://www.politico.eu/article/acc...how-referendum-claims-have-panned-out-so-far/

There are other examples out there.

So both sides told porkies and exaggerated things. Does it mean we are rejoining?

 

[icowden]

So both sides told porkies and exaggerated things. Does it mean we are rejoining?

Ideally yes because the list of Brexit benefits so far is:

• er...

 

[icowden]

A quick google should give you a longer list of Remain claims, for example:
https://www.politico.eu/article/acc...how-referendum-claims-have-panned-out-so-far/

The examples I used are from this year / last year, not 2017 when we were effectively still within the EU for almost everything.

 

[Stevo 666]

Ideally yes because the list of Brexit benefits so far is:

• er...

As people have mentioned before, freedom to make our own decisions. Sometimes freedom is worth paying for.

And not getting tied into a high regulation, high tax, low growth bloc.

 

[Stevo 666]

The examples I used are from this year / last year, not 2017 when we were effectively still within the EU for almost everything.

So what?

Anyhow, doesn't matter how much you bang on about it, the chances of us rejoining are extremely low.

 

[Mr Celine]

As people have mentioned before, freedom to make our own decisions. Sometimes freedom is worth paying for.

And as Janis Joplin said, freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

 

[Ian H]

And as Janis Joplin said, freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

Kris Kristofferson originally.

 

[Mr Celine]

Kris Kristofferson originally.

Yeah but her version is better.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Yeah but her version is better.

Everybody’s version of a KK song was better.

 

[Ian H]

Yeah but her version is better.

I meant that he actually wrote it.
Not necessarily disagreeing otherwise.
Grateful Dead's version was good.

 

[Stevo 666]

And as Janis Joplin said, freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

I'll give that the same sort of weighting as I would to most statements by drug addled rock stars.