Who was the best prime minister?

[Poacher]

I don't think it was.

The point of the poll tax was to replace the Rates system which was unwieldy and heavily biased. It was supposed to be a small supplemental tax. The problem was that renters could get away without paying it, and the 20%/100% split was badly administered. You paid 100% if you were in employment, 20% if not. Councils had to pursue defaulters but didn't have the resources to do it. Opposition built, the riots happened. The ultimate result was that Major reversed the policy and introduced Council Tax which many would argue is far more costly and is still unfair/unbalanced.

While I'm broadly in agreement with most of your points, I don't remember the Community Charge / Poll Tax being a "small supplemental tax"; it replaced Rates and needed to raise a similar amount of income. You're certainly correct about councils not having resources - here in Nottingham we had "Ted Hughes" and "Sylvia Plath" co-habiting and never paying a penny! Apart from the 20% tax demanded from students and the unemployed, 100% was demanded from those working part-time on minimum wage (Whoops! not introduced until 1999) and exactly the same amount from millionaires. No wonder there were riots!
Council Tax is far from perfect, but is arguably more equitable and certainly easier to administer. It should have had more than 8 bands, and there's good reason to remedy this with an increase to 12 or more bands to extend the top end. This could be relatively straightforward, with no need for a complete re-evaluation exercise, just concentrate on the relatively small number of properties (in most council areas!) in Band H, and bear in mind that the tax on a Band H property is only three times that on a Band A.

 

[BoldonLad]

I don't think it was.

The point of the poll tax was to replace the Rates system which was unwieldy and heavily biased. It was supposed to be a small supplemental tax. The problem was that renters could get away without paying it, and the 20%/100% split was badly administered. You paid 100% if you were in employment, 20% if not. Councils had to pursue defaulters but didn't have the resources to do it. Opposition built, the riots happened. The ultimate result was that Major reversed the policy and introduced Council Tax which many would argue is far more costly and is still unfair/unbalanced.

Council Tax is essentially Rates under a different name, and, I would agree, it is just as flawed.

 

[BoldonLad]

While I'm broadly in agreement with most of your points, I don't remember the Community Charge / Poll Tax being a "small supplemental tax"; it replaced Rates and needed to raise a similar amount of income. You're certainly correct about councils not having resources - here in Nottingham we had "Ted Hughes" and "Sylvia Plath" co-habiting and never paying a penny! Apart from the 20% tax demanded from students and the unemployed, 100% was demanded from those working part-time on minimum wage (Whoops! not introduced until 1999) and exactly the same amount from millionaires. No wonder there were riots!
Council Tax is far from perfect, but is arguably more equitable and certainly easier to administer. It should have had more than 8 bands, and there's good reason to remedy this with an increase to 12 or more bands to extend the top end. This could be relatively straightforward, with no need for a complete re-evaluation exercise, just concentrate on the relatively small number of properties (in most council areas!) in Band H, and bear in mind that the tax on a Band H property is only three times that on a Band A.

In theory at least, Community Charge should have been a smaller charge than rates, at least in my area, because it was levied per head, rather than per property. But, it made little or no provision for ability to pay, and, was not easy to enforce or collect. IMHO, a local Income tax would be more "fair", but, would still suffer from difficulty in administering, taxing buildings is easier, but, not more "fair'.

 

[Mr Celine]

Domestic rates were actually fairer than either of the systems we've had since. Those in higher rated properties were more likely to be wealthy or to be using more council services.

 

[Beebo]

Domestic rates were actually fairer than either of the systems we've had since. Those in higher rated properties were more likely to be wealthy or to be using more council services.

What was the difference between rates and council tax? Both are based on property value /size.

 

[BoldonLad]

Domestic rates were actually fairer than either of the systems we've had since. Those in higher rated properties were more likely to be wealthy or to be using more council services.

Isn’t the same true of Council Tax?, ie higher banded properties more likely to be owned by wealthier individuals).

The only difference I can see between rates and council tax is the name of one of the multipliers (ie rateable value vs council tax band).

 

[AuroraSaab]

John Smith was a real loss to UK politics. Of the Tories probably John Major will be judged to have done better in retrospect than we thought at the time. Funny to look back to that period when being regarded as 'a bit of a character' as a politician meant people like Harold Wilson not people like Boris Johnson. Seems a very different time in British politics to where we are now.

 

[Poacher]

What was the difference between rates and council tax? Both are based on property value /size.

The rates system was based on an estimate of the annual rent a property could be let for on the open market at a particular date. Theoretically each individual property could have a unique rateable value. Council Tax is based on an estimate of the price a property could be sold for on 1/1/1991 (1/1/2003 in Wales). Rather than a detailed inspection of each property, estate agents made a fortune in fees by either making an educated guess from the comfort of their offices or if more diligent, driving along the road giving a cursory glance at the houses. Properties deemed to be worth less than £40,000 were assigned to Band A, those between £40,001 and £52,000 to Band B, between £52,001 and £68,000 to Band C, etc., up to Band H for those over £320,000, with no upper limit. I can't remember whether any discounts or exemptions were applied under the rates system, but there are for Council Tax, e.g. 25% discount for single occupancy. See here. Local authorities can also use their own discretion in granting Council Tax Benefit to reduce the cost for those on low income and/or claiming certain benefits already, such as Universal Credit.

 

[Mr Celine]

Isn’t the same true of Council Tax?, ie higher banded properties more likely to be owned by wealthier individuals).

My dad used to moan about the house across the road having a lower rateable value, despite being a much larger house on an enormous plot. But it only had three bedrooms while ours had five. It was occupied by a retired couple, ours by a couple and four school age kids. We were using far more in council services than they were, so I argued it was right that we should pay more.

 

[BoldonLad]

My dad used to moan about the house across the road having a lower rateable value, despite being a much larger house on an enormous plot. But it only had three bedrooms while ours had five. It was occupied by a retired couple, ours by a couple and four school age kids. We were using far more in council services than they were, so I argued it was right that we should pay more.

Isn’t exactly the same true of council tax? Ie little or no relationship between services used and tax paid. Should there be?, I would have thought it should be based on ability to pay, but, that brings different challenges.

 

[Pblakeney]

Isn’t exactly the same true of council tax? Ie little or no relationship between services used and tax paid. Should there be?, I would have thought it should be based on ability to pay, but, that brings different challenges.

Unpopular opinion. The poll tax was fair. You pay for services used. Less services, less tax. More services, more tax.
Yeah, I can hear you now. Don't care.

 

[briantrumpet]

Unpopular opinion. The poll tax was fair. You pay for services used. Less services, less tax. More services, more tax.
Yeah, I can hear you now. Don't care.

Regressive though, as the poorer you are, the larger percentage of your income it costs.

 

[Pblakeney]

Regressive though, as the poorer you are, the larger percentage of your income it costs.

As I said, unpopular opinion.
Flawed, but the principle was sound if poorly executed.

 

[icowden]

While I'm broadly in agreement with most of your points, I don't remember the Community Charge / Poll Tax being a "small supplemental tax";

It wasn't but it was *meant* to be.

Apart from the 20% tax demanded from students and the unemployed, 100% was demanded from those working part-time on minimum wage (Whoops! not introduced until 1999) and exactly the same amount from millionaires. No wonder there were riots!

Yup. It needed to have been much more graduated.

Council Tax is far from perfect, but is arguably more equitable and certainly easier to administer.

The argument is usually that Agnes, who has lived in her 3 bed terrace in Fulham since she was born in 1946 married but never had children, is now a widow and cannot afford to pay band A council tax just because her house is now worth close to 2 million.

 

[Poacher]

The argument is usually that Agnes, who has lived in her 3 bed terrace in Fulham since she was born in 1946 married but never had children, is now a widow and cannot afford to pay band A council tax just because her house is now worth close to 2 million.

Whut? Agnes will be paying the lowest band, minus 25% single occupancy discount. If she really, really can't afford that she can apply for Council Tax Benefit, and may well get it if her circumstances qualify. Her house, despite increasing in value, is still in the Band A it was designated in 1991. Am I missing something?