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AuroraSaab

Pharaoh
Sure we do. Initially we had single sex spaces because men made provision for men and told women they couldn't have their own spaces.
Again, not true. Women were always free to use any trains for example but women only carriages and waiting rooms were introduced so they could travel without harassment.
Tokyo and big Indian cities have reintroduced women only carriages to cut down on sexual assaults. English prisons were mixed until the work of prison reformers to ensure women's safety. We all know why women and girls need separate spaces away from males.
 

monkers

Shaman
It would have to be a permanent state of pregnancy, I don't believe any man would 'do" childbirth 😂. As my wife, and daughters tell me, 'if the men had to have the babies, we would be extinct" 😂

Biological sex only determines reproductive potential - but should that alone be the determinant of all treatments?

If men went to a lap dancing club, with a sign outside that said ''men only'', are there no men who would not be disappointed to find that the lap dancers were all men? Was reproduction the only biological feature or function on their minds?
 

AuroraSaab

Pharaoh
Sport was always a permitted exception under the GRA. It has no basis in this discussion. The law continues to say that my sex is reassigned. As Andrew of Sandringham - 'Andy Sandy' - has demonstrated, nobody is above the law, not even you Aurora.

The law has said all sorts. It doesn't change material reality. Good that you are acknowledging the supreme court decision though: a GRC offers you no extra rights over those of other men.
 

icowden

Pharaoh
No, it's because a man going into a single sex space stands out and women can rightly call on him to leave or be removed. You want that right to only apply to some men but not to others.
That is demonstrably not true. There have been multiple reported instances of women being threatened because they don't "look" like women.
We all know why single sex spaces came about and why they are needed.
Apparently not. They came about during the Victorian period. Public restrooms had been mostly for men. The Victorians after agreeing that women should be allowed to actually work, were concerned about preserving virtue and protecting weaker women. Secondly, whilst men generally just needed a trough, women needed proper sanitary facilities. Gendered toilets have been around for less than 200 years.

They aren't really needed now. My local Smith and Western has 6 toilets, each consisting of a single cubicle with a door. 3 of them are marked for women, and three for men. Why? What on earth is the point?
 

icowden

Pharaoh
Again, not true. Women were always free to use any trains for example but women only carriages and waiting rooms were introduced so they could travel without harassment.
In response to a single sex attacker. They were a huge failure with most women preferring to travel in the smoking cars.
 
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AuroraSaab

Pharaoh
That is demonstrably not true. There have been multiple reported instances of women being threatened because they don't "look" like women.
That's because trans identifying men have forced themselves into women's spaces with the result that women have now become hyper vigilant. I suggest such men stay out of women's spaces and then women can be sure that everyone in there is female, regardless of appearance.

They aren't really needed now. My local Smith and Western has 6 toilets, each consisting of a single cubicle with a door. 3 of them are marked for women, and three for men. Why? What on earth is the point?

I would argue that there is still a need for single sex facilities but single use cubicles are a reasonable accommodation that doesn't force women to share with men.
 
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Ianonabike

Guest
Toilets with gaps under the doors are the safest, for health reasons. People often go to the toilet when they're feeling ill. Not being spotted prostrate (I almost typed prostate) in self-contained rooms can mean the difference between life and death.
 
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Psamathe

Guru
Tokyo and big Indian cities have reintroduced women only carriages to cut down on sexual assaults.
My experience of trains in India is that women only carriages are not much used by women (or men). Most seem to travel in the mixed carriages even during the rush hour when. the doors can't close and everybody is crushed in. Long distance trains (>24 hrs) I only travelled on a few and carriages I was using (being a man) were well mixed. I suspect long distance trains are not such a risk as they are fully booked months in advance (except for the few seats on "loopholes" - which is how I got tickets and why I didn't use them much) - so lots of people around the entire time.
 
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monkers

Shaman
The law has said all sorts. It doesn't change material reality. Good that you are acknowledging the supreme court decision though: a GRC offers you no extra rights over those of other men.
The law had indeed said many things, and things change over time. However the text of the EqA has not changed materially, and the intent of parliament was expressed.

One judgment of any court does not change statute without itself legislating from the bench.

The arguments made by the SC make no sense in English in plain language, let alone on the level of statutory construction.

I can quite understand that they look elsewhere in the EqA when trans are not specifically included under the grounds of sex, which I'll grant anyone would seem the obvious place.

However thinking that it could not be found under pregnancy and maternity points to the same absurdity that you identify - nobody has reproductive potential but cis women and trans men. But trans men are not identified there either, meaning only that this was not a gateway expression of sex.

However again, parliament did express their intent under the grounds of gender reassignment, which does say that sex is reassigned under this provision ...

Under Section 7 of the Equality Act 2010, a person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if they are proposing to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process (or part of a process) to reassign their sex by changing physiological or other attributes. Protection does not require medical intervention, a Gender Recognition Certificate, or a permanent, irreversible change, as it applies to individuals in any stage of transition.

This asserts the deeming provision of the GRA ... ''for all purposes'' etc.

I will assert that this final sentence is the explanation of why the construction of the EqA places the definition here in Section 7 ...

Protection does not require medical intervention, a Gender Recognition Certificate, or a permanent, irreversible change, as it applies to individuals in any stage of transition.

Therefore the legal standing of the individual is defined here. This is the gateway test for standing in plain English, and standing is without or without satifaction of the deeming provision of the GRA.

My argument is entirely neutral, it is not any form of advocacy of any special treatments. I'm not required to agree or disagree with it. It is a matter of neutral fact ... anybody in the process of reassigning their sex is covered.

As James Bellringer points out - the term ''gender reassignment'' becomes a nonsense phrase especially as a legal protection, since it is not gender that is asserted as being reassigned by the provision, but sex. He is not alone, the then serving AG Vera Baird was herself critical of that term during committee stages before the Bill was put before parliament, which chose to retain it.

If sex is reassigned by definition, then the derived treatments must follow from that definition.
 

monkers

Shaman
If (the conditional) people are protected under Section 7, it can only follow that those people who are in any stage of transition are protected under the ground of sex.

You've made the argument that the law excludes me - it doesn't. If the law has reassigned my sex, it must follow that my protections and treatments are grounded in sex. Anything else is a detriment.
 

monkers

Shaman
That's because trans identifying men forced transgender women and trans women lawfully make use of women's spaces.
 

monkers

Shaman
I would argue that there is still a need for single sex facilities but single use cubicles are a reasonable accommodation that doesn't force women to share with men.

I agree. That is a legitimate opinion and you must remain free to argue it. However it is not what the law says, and if it was - well you'd no longer be needing to argue it.
 

monkers

Shaman
... from discrimination on the basis of being transgender. They can still be discriminated against based on their sex.

That's like saying the EqA permits sex discrimination against women due to their religious belief.

Just because the gateway for standing is not given in one category, it doesn't follow that it disapplies standing for any or every other category.
That would be a logical fallacy. Not that I blame you for trying that, because that is what the SC seem to have done.

What you are doing is noticing the contradiction of the SC judgment.
 
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CXRAndy

Epic Member
That's because trans identifying men forced transgender women and trans women lawfully make use of women's spaces.

The law is an ass,

It should and will be changed to protect women and force men and TiMs to use male facilities.
 
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