Benefits Again

[winjim]

No, not an attempt to derail.

No, I don’t know what you mean by working class.

In this context working class in the very broad sense. Like she's not exactly the Queen, or even famous father of six, notorious gamer of the system and inexplicably popular Jacob Rees-Mogg.

 

[BoldonLad]

Just because something is complicated, doesn't make it meaningless. I think it was a conversation (the word exaggerates the reciprocity of the exchange, but never mind) between Shep and me that he refers to above. The point I was making at the time is the extent to which CC is dominated by the voices of those who identify as working class, but by any measure of present material circumstances are very much middle class, and whose politics is very much organised around the right to protect the wealth and status they have accumulated as a result of the class mobility that was available to the boomer generation. They get very annoyed about having this pointed out, because the sense of entitlement to their personal wealth is very much dependent on the belief that it is the result only of individual hard work, and not of structural or historical factors which have placed them in a position of privilege relative to others. Neither of the two main meanings of class (identity/culture v material circumstances/relation to the means of production) necessarily supercedes the other, but is is important to unpick the ways in which they interact, especially if you are making a particular argument or case about coalitions of political interests.

Sorry to disappoint, it had nothing to do with your exchange with @shep, it was a response to @winjim’s us of the term “working class”.

 

[theclaud]

Sorry to disappoint, it had nothing to do with your exchange with @shep, it was a response to @winjim’s us of the term “working class”.

It's not all about you. I was referring to Shep's post #41.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Lost completely now, we've got one bloke saying you're working class if you work and get paid for it but he isn't because he's got a 'profession '.
Then we've got something about Wealth which we've never had an answer to so where would someone like me fit in?

Go to work and get paid, title is 'Telecom Engineer ' but isn't everyone an Engineer these days?

How about Nurse, Teaching or Prison service, would these be professions and therefore are we a household of Middle Class people?

 

[BoldonLad]

Just because something is complicated, doesn't make it meaningless. I think it was a conversation (the word exaggerates the reciprocity of the exchange, but never mind) between Shep and me that he refers to above. The point I was making at the time is the extent to which CC is dominated by the voices of those who identify as working class, but by any measure of present material circumstances are very much middle class, and whose politics is very much organised around the right to protect the wealth and status they have accumulated as a result of the class mobility that was available to the boomer generation. They get very annoyed about having this pointed out, because the sense of entitlement to their personal wealth is very much dependent on the belief that it is the result only of individual hard work, and not of structural or historical factors which have placed them in a position of privilege relative to others. Neither of the two main meanings of class (identity/culture v material circumstances/relation to the means of production) necessarily supercedes the other, but is is important to unpick the ways in which they interact, especially if you are making a particular argument or case about coalitions of political interests.

Born in 1947, of a Shipyard Welder father, and a Shop Assistant mother, I think I probably fit the definition of working class boomer.

I did “improve my lot” compared to my parents, which, incidentally, pleased them greatly. My off-spring have similarly “improved their lot” (with one exception), compared to me. Which pleases me greatly.

Not sure I have achieved “social mobility” whatever that means. But, IMHO, the “improvements in my lot”, where achieved mainly because of a combination of: my parents good advice; the Grammar School; a bit of effort from me. As with most things, a bit of luck helped too.

 

[BoldonLad]

It's not all about you. I was referring to Shep's post #41.

Oh, ok, I thought it was all about you.

 

[theclaud]

Not sure I have achieved “social mobility” whatever that means.

Moving upwards from one class to another. Starting working class and gaining entry to the middle class. No criticism is implied.

 

[BoldonLad]

Lost completely now, we've got one bloke saying you're working class if you work and get paid for it but he isn't because he's got a 'profession '.
Then we've got something about Wealth which we've never had an answer to so where would someone like me fit in?

Go to work and get paid, title is 'Telecom Engineer ' but isn't everyone an Engineer these days?

How about Nurse, Teaching or Prison service, would these be professions and therefore are we a household of Middle Class people?

That is exactly why I avoid reference to “working class”; “middle class”; “wealthy”; “professional”, unless I put them in quotes.

These terms mean different things to different people.

No offense @shep, I had you down as working class, (as I am), even although, I suspect you may well earn more than many on here.

My little drinking circle (all retired now, and, all boomers), but, in their working days; A Policeman; A Physics Teacher; An Accountant; Two Electricians; A Software Developer. A “profession” or two in there, I would think, but, “working class” to a man.

 

[BoldonLad]

Moving upwards from one class to another. Starting working class and gaining entry to the middle class. No criticism is implied.

No criticism assumed. I never “moved up”, quite happy where I was, and, still am.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Lost completely now, we've got one bloke saying you're working class if you work and get paid for it but he isn't because he's got a 'profession '.
Then we've got something about Wealth which we've never had an answer to so where would someone like me fit in?

Not sure whether I'm the one bloke mentioned or not but as I've weighed in previously I'll take a stab at answering.

There's lots of ways of determining class but if you want a starting point, think metric or imperial as an analogy, you could use Marx's definition or one based on income and social status.

Under Marx's method I'm working class; I've always lived on a wage.

On the other method as a retired mid ranking Civil Servant, homeowner etc I'm middle class.

I'd suggest you might be the same. Working (or worked for a wage) but with a professional qualification and appropriate salary you might be Middle Class using that type of measure.

TBH unless/until class equates to privilege (and I take @theclaud's point about boomer's) it's an interesting discussion but not one that gets us all that far.

 

[Cirrus]

Under Marx's method I'm working class; I've always lived on a wage.

On the other method as a retired mid ranking Civil Servant, homeowner etc I'm middle class.

Probably splitting hairs here, but as a civil servant I'd be suprised if you were not on a salary rather than a "wage", would that have a bearing?

 

[Deleted member 28]

Probably splitting hairs here, but as a civil servant I'd be suprised if you were not on a salary rather than a "wage", would that have a bearing?

That's quite interesting as I'm salaried but if I work overtime I get extra money, as did my Wife (within reason) and my kids.

I feel we're all working class though (my family) irrespective of the amount these jobs pay.

An example of this are some maintenance fella's I know, shifts, weekends and callout see's them earning 70k per year so surely can't be a wage thing?

 

[BoldonLad]

Not sure whether I'm the one bloke mentioned or not but as I've weighed in previously I'll take a stab at answering.

There's lots of ways of determining class but if you want a starting point, think metric or imperial as an analogy, you could use Marx's definition or one based on income and social status.

Under Marx's method I'm working class; I've always lived on a wage.

On the other method as a retired mid ranking Civil Servant, homeowner etc I'm middle class.

I'd suggest you might be the same. Working (or worked for a wage) but with a professional qualification and appropriate salary you might be Middle Class using that type of measure.

TBH unless/until class equates to privilege (and I take @theclaud's point about boomer's) it's an interesting discussion but not one that gets us all that far.

Quite, which is exactly why I queried @winjim's use of the term.

I may be wrong, but, wasn't it that well know boxer, John Prescott, who said: "we are all middle class now" ?

But, judging from the comments so far, "class" is very important to some.

 

[Deleted member 28]

No criticism assumed. I never “moved up”, quite happy where I was, and, still am.

Absolutely,
I think I'm working class but if someone out there thinks I'm something else I couldn't care less.

I see middle class as having a family history of being Grammer school educated, University followed by a career in something like Dentistry, Doctor, Vet, Solicitor etc not just 'getting a job as a civil servant ' for 35 yrs ' my Son's a Civil Servant for Christ's sake working in a Prison!

 

[winjim]

Blimey, I wish I'd never said anything. All this talk about what exactly constitutes class is splitting heirs and kind of detracts from the point I was trying to make. This is why I mentioned it as a derail, we've had this conversation many times before and it always goes like this.

Call them whatever class you like, but rich, powerful, establishment figure sire many children and game the system to the tune of millions of pounds. Some of them even create and manage the system in order to grossly bias it in their own favour and are often lauded and rewarded for doing so, even by people whom they are exploiting, while those in a poorer situation are vilified for maybe similar things yet orders of magnitude less significant.

Making sexual comments about women's bodies but criticising a woman who does photoshoots in her underwear. Criticising her for playing the benefits system yet voting for the corrupt people who rig the system. Criticising her for selling her story and maximising her PR yet uncritically believing things printed in tabloid newspapers which do not have your best interests in mind. However you define it and wherever you draw the line it's classism.

Ironically of course, it's this very classism that she is using to her advantage. By selling her story to the gossip mags she's exploiting the shock value. She needs people to look down on her, to sneer at her, to think themselves better than her, that's what sells. But she's using the tools at her disposal, she doesn't have the benefit of an expensive well connected education, or a gentlemen's club, or a father with a peerage. But she's got a PR firm.