BRFR Cake Stop 'breaking news' miscellany

[Ian H]

"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

 

[Pblakeney]

"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

That's funny. I came a conclusion the other week that over my long years my "attic" has filled up and is now full so to add any new information I have to forget some old information. Makes me feel better about any onset of dementia at least. 😉

 

[briantrumpet]

"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

I'm not sure who penned that (I could probably find out using Google), but it's bunkum from beginning to end. It's a mistake to think that it's not extremely elastic (or, at least, plastic).

Mind you, at one time, they thought that the heart was where thoughts originated and memories were stored (hence 'learn by heart'), so it's an improvement on that. Lordy knows what they thought the squelchy stuff in the skull was for (other than for fricasseeing, in extremis).

 

[Ian H]

I'm not sure who penned that (I could probably find out using Google), but it's bunkum from beginning to end. It's a mistake to think that it's not extremely elastic (or, at least, plastic).

Mind you, at one time, they thought that the heart was where thoughts originated and memories were stored (hence 'learn by heart'), so it's an improvement on that. Lordy knows what they thought the squelchy stuff in the skull was for (other than for fricasseeing, in extremis).

Conan Doyle's most famous creation, speaking to Dr Watson not long after they were introduced. Rattling good Victorian melodrama.

 

[Ian H]

Conan Doyle's most famous creation, speaking to Dr Watson not long after they were introduced. Rattling good Victorian melodrama.

Of course you will now have to forget that in order not to over-stuff your
brain.

 

[PurplePenguin]

I'm not arguing that it's not capable of amazing stuff, but that ignores two points:

- as I mentioned, your (and my) expectations of and abilities with it will be affected by the 'old school' hard learning we've done in the past (even if you're too young to have been subjected to log tables, slide rules, and non-calculator exams)

- you're not factoring in the potential enormous cognitive harm that I (and others) argue could be *an* outcome of its widespread misuse in learning (whether formal or informal).

And my Luddite argument is that the AI industry is not going to take any account of the cognitive harm it could do, as that would put a brake on its expansion, in a similar way that betting companies will push back on any controls that protect punters from betting addiction, as that undermines their bottom line. There are number of parallels (fossil fuels, smoking, etc) that wouldn't be very convincing in countering the suggestion that the goal of maximising profits will always win in unbridled capitalism, even if the outcome is massive human harm.

If you take a simple example of a teacher setting some homework that a student cannot do. There are two ways AI could become involved:
- The student ask AI for the answer and blindly copies it
- The student uses AI as a teacher with vast knowledge and unlimited patience, understands whatever it is the teacher tried to explain and then does the homework.

The former is clearly unhelpful and on a par with getting someone else to do the work. The latter though is incredibly powerful and massively aids learning.

Your focus is entirely on the cheat option and misses that even young minds can use it constructively. Sure, there needs to be some effort to prevent the cheating, but in my view the learning possibilities that are available easily trump this.

My concerns are that it ultimately needs to be monetised to pay the cost, and it relies on people to make content which is then stolen by AI - this doesn't seem to be the most robust model for something.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Of course you will now have to forget that in order not to over-stuff your
brain.

Forget what?

 

[briantrumpet]

If you take a simple example of a teacher setting some homework that a student cannot do. There are two ways AI could become involved:
- The student ask AI for the answer and blindly copies it
- The student uses AI as a teacher with vast knowledge and unlimited patience, understands whatever it is the teacher tried to explain and then does the homework.

The former is clearly unhelpful and on a par with getting someone else to do the work. The latter though is incredibly powerful and massively aids learning.

Your focus is entirely on the cheat option and misses that even young minds can use it constructively. Sure, there needs to be some effort to prevent the cheating, but in my view the learning possibilities that are available easily trump this.

My concerns are that it ultimately needs to be monetised to pay the cost, and it relies on people to make content which is then stolen by AI - this doesn't seem to be the most robust model for something.

I hope that my worries are unfounded, but I worry that they are not, listening to the concerns coming from academia (and obviously from my own finkin'). And given that a university education is now much more viewed as a means to an end (the end being industry and career benefit), rather than just for the fascination of learning stuff (whether or not it has a commercial application), I fear that your optimism is misplaced.

 

[briantrumpet]

Conan Doyle's most famous creation, speaking to Dr Watson not long after they were introduced. Rattling good Victorian melodrama.

If he was so wrong about the brain, it's amazing he solved any crimes at all, especially as he was high as a kite most of the time. Probably just as well ketamine wasn't around then, otherwise he'd have invented Twitter and electric cars, and flown off to Mars, rather than having a crush on Moriarty. (I might have got a few facts wrong here.)

 

[briantrumpet]

Actually, maybe someone could teach Trump how to use AI.

 

[C R]

Actually, maybe someone could teach Trump how to use AI.

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[briantrumpet]

If you take a simple example of a teacher setting some homework that a student cannot do. There are two ways AI could become involved:
- The student ask AI for the answer and blindly copies it
- The student uses AI as a teacher with vast knowledge and unlimited patience, understands whatever it is the teacher tried to explain and then does the homework.

Further reflection:

Rubbish teaching if the pupil has been given homework that can't even be started on without recourse to AI.

Rubbish teaching if the pupil thinks that getting to the end of the homework with the 'right answer' is more important than trying to work it out and get as far as they can themself with their own skills, knowledge & understanding (I'll grant you that this view is largely the result of how the current education norm is that what we are looking for is 'right answers' that will get you good marks).

As I'll keep on saying, it is capable of doing amazing things, thanks to its ability to crunch and assimilate vast quantities of data, but it needs to be treated like a dangerous tool, such as a chainsaw, which could cut down a tree blocking a road, cut down a virgin rainforest, or chop your leg off.

 

[Pblakeney]

As I'll keep on saying, it is capable of doing amazing things, thanks to its ability to crunch and assimilate vast quantities of data...

AI's main problem is the quality of the data it is crunching in the first place.
Bullshit in, bullshit out.

 

[PurplePenguin]

Further reflection:

Rubbish teaching if the pupil has been given homework that can't even be started on without recourse to AI.

Rubbish teaching if the pupil thinks that getting to the end of the homework with the 'right answer' is more important than trying to work it out and get as far as they can themself with their own skills, knowledge & understanding (I'll grant you that this view is largely the result of how the current education norm is that what we are looking for is 'right answers' that will get you good marks).

As I'll keep on saying, it is capable of doing amazing things, thanks to its ability to crunch and assimilate vast quantities of data, but it needs to be treated like a dangerous tool, such as a chainsaw, which could cut down a tree blocking a road, cut down a virgin rainforest, or chop your leg off.

Your respnse doesn't really make sense for sciences and the like

Yes in an ideal world evey student would be perfectly taught by someone with infinite patience to help them until they understood. That's obviously not the reality.

Here's an example for you. Teacher teaches how to round numbers. Student doesn't completely get it and is stumped when asked to round 52 to the nearest hundred, so they have a chat with AI. If all they do is find out the answer is 100, then that hasn't helped, but if they can learn how to do it with AI then that's great.

Similarly, the bright student who immediately got the idea in class may be wondering how 50 rounds to the nearest hundred. They could wait until the next day and see if the teacher has time for a question or they could find out with AI.

This extends to everything in life. E.g. I had a lengthy discussion with AI following a doctor's appointment. The doctor had 5 mins. AI had as long as I wanted. As a result I understood what the doctor was testing for and why.

 

[briantrumpet]

Your respnse doesn't really make sense for sciences and the like

Yes in an ideal world evey student would be perfectly taught by someone with infinite patience to help them until they understood. That's obviously not the reality.

Here's an example for you. Teacher teaches how to round numbers. Student doesn't completely get it and is stumped when asked to round 52 to the nearest hundred, so they have a chat with AI. If all they do is find out the answer is 100, then that hasn't helped, but if they can learn how to do it with AI then that's great.

Similarly, the bright student who immediately got the idea in class may be wondering how 50 rounds to the nearest hundred. They could wait until the next day and see if the teacher has time for a question or they could find out with AI.

This extends to everything in life. E.g. I had a lengthy discussion with AI following a doctor's appointment. The doctor had 5 mins. AI had as long as I wanted. As a result I understood what the doctor was testing for and why.

As I say, I'm not denying that there are benefits, and it can be amazing.