BRFR Cake Stop 'breaking news' miscellany

[briantrumpet]

I've still got a gown (saw it in a wardrobe a few months ago). Pretty sure it's an undergraduate one as I seem to remember having to hire one (and some daft hat) for the ceremonies.

When I next need some rags to clean my bike.

I seem to remember back then there were occasions when rules require we wear one, but I probably skipped those occasions and I can't see it having any use for anybody now.

I knew I'd have several school occasions to wear the MA set (no hat), so bought it, and that was before I got the graduation music gig: I'm now up to 389 ceremonies. The hood is actually starting to wear out on the seams.

 

[briantrumpet]

Not this time, but I can see why you would have assumed that. A.
bit like I assumed you were making some sort of pork sword related pun earlier.

Not quite the complete wit I thought you were.

And I was, obvs. Never miss the opportunity for a bit of filth.

 

[Pross]

Do students actually want to go to those ceremonies? I did two full time attended degrees (bachelor and higher degree) and didn't want to go to either but was made to by my Mum who was desperate to attend and I hated every minute of the day(s)

My younger daughter was planning hers from about the day she got accepted to Uni. Even my older daughter who is less into that stuff quite enjoyed it all. My mum is still annoyed I didn’t go to mine and haven’t got a photo on the rogues gallery in the hall which is ever expanding with grandkids now. I think my one sister that didn’t go to Uni is happy though.

 

[briantrumpet]

My younger daughter was planning hers from about the day she got accepted to Uni. Even my older daughter who is less into that stuff quite enjoyed it all. My mum is still annoyed I didn’t go to mine and haven’t got a photo on the rogues gallery in the hall which is ever expanding with grandkids now. I think my one sister that didn’t go to Uni is happy though.

I cheated by getting a photo done for parents, and the loan of the gown & hat came free. I remember the hire charge at the time for half a day for an actual ceremony was extortionate, and was literally more than they'd had to pay for the last two years of my BA (exactly £0).

 

[Pross]

Universities were delighted when they got to charge £9k pa, but they were caught off guard when students expected some level of service in exchange for that. This case is just a continuation of that disconnection. I have some sympathy for the students. They paid and received a sub standard service.

What service would have been acceptable in a global pandemic where they were forced to close? Maybe it will open the floodgates for a bunch of school kids who messed up their GCSEs and A levels to also sue.

 

[Psamathe]

They paid and received a sub standard service.

Doesn't it depend on exactly what they paid for?

If they paid for an education then as per my experience that I paid standard student fee rates for as Distance Learning, you can get the same education without sitting in a lecture theatre and without face to face tutorials, etc. (though maybe depends on subject in some limited cases). I even had to do practical experiments and write them up for formal assessment as Distance Learning. Unlike Open University my courses had no residential parts (eg no 2 week summer schools).

 

[First Aspect]

Universities were delighted when they got to charge £9k pa, but they were caught off guard when students expected some level of service in exchange for that. This case is just a continuation of that disconnection. I have some sympathy for the students. They paid and received a sub standard service.

The majority of the people concerned haven't paid yet. There's no evidence any fewer of them got degrees. They didn't pay for a "service" they entered into a contract, the terms of which have most likely been met.

Disappointment does not necessarily give rise to a justifiable cause of action.

 

[briantrumpet]

The majority of the people concerned haven't paid yet. There's no evidence any fewer of them got degrees. They didn't pay for a "service" they entered into a contract, the terms of which have most likely been met.

Disappointment does not necessarily give rise to a justifiable cause of action.

I'd be pretty sure that all the relevant paperwork will have been completed by both sides of the teaching/learning contract - it's not like when I was an undergrad and degrees were decided on very woolly (and I suspect, barely recorded) criteria. Universities now have to protect themselves against disgruntled students, so everything ought to be 'objective' and recorded for both the institution and the students' records. I can't see there being any 'holes' there for any of the affected degrees.

 

[PurplePenguin]

What service would have been acceptable in a global pandemic where they were forced to close? Maybe it will open the floodgates for a bunch of school kids who messed up their GCSEs and A levels to also sue.

The service the students received may have been the best possible under the conditions available, but that doesn't mean the fees could still be justified. Even Ryanair was forced to provide refunds.

The core part of the discussion is whether universities should be treated as businesses with customers. In my view, they are at that pricing level.

GCSEs and A-levels don't really compare because the students were not paying.

 

[PurplePenguin]

Doesn't it depend on exactly what they paid for?

If they paid for an education then as per my experience that I paid standard student fee rates for as Distance Learning, you can get the same education without sitting in a lecture theatre and without face to face tutorials, etc. (though maybe depends on subject in some limited cases). I even had to do practical experiments and write them up for formal assessment as Distance Learning. Unlike Open University my courses had no residential parts (eg no 2 week summer schools).

I'd assume you paid less for remote learning.

 

[PurplePenguin]

The majority of the people concerned haven't paid yet. There's no evidence any fewer of them got degrees. They didn't pay for a "service" they entered into a contract, the terms of which have most likely been met.

Disappointment does not necessarily give rise to a justifiable cause of action.

You can't make the argument that they are paying for a degree, otherwise someone who fails would be entitled to a refund.

You also can't make the argument that they haven't paid when they have a debt. I assume they are after debt reduction rather than a cash windfall.

And yes, the strength of their claim in front of a judge will be based on whether the terms of the contract have been met. But no one here is commenting on the strength of their legal position, they are commenting on the moral position. Plus if UCL have settled, it can't be that simple

 

[briantrumpet]

I'd assume you paid less for remote learning.

Given that I suspect most university courses are somewhat hybrid anyway these days, that seems an unlikely thing to expect discounts on, and I doubt if 'contracts', such as they are, specify the mix-type of delivery of courses, even if the expectation is/was that most will/would be in person. If there are genuine unavoidable circumstances, and universities not only made the best efforts they could in those circumstances, but also that the learning outcomes were delivered, this doesn't appear to be a killer argument.

 

[Pross]

The service the students received may have been the best possible under the conditions available, but that doesn't mean the fees could still be justified. Even Ryanair was forced to provide refunds.

The core part of the discussion is whether universities should be treated as businesses with customers. In my view, they are at that pricing level.

GCSEs and A-levels don't really compare because the students were not paying.

Was there less cost to the Unis as a result of how they had to deliver their courses?

 

[PurplePenguin]

Was there less cost to the Unis as a result of how they had to deliver their courses?

I presume they furlouged all the buildings staff and turned off the heating.

 

[briantrumpet]

I presume they furlouged all the buildings staff and turned off the heating.

So should they charge less for mild winters?