BRFR Cake Stop 'breaking news' miscellany

[Psamathe]

Degrees have in the past been a useful indicator of a young person's independence, in terms of living and self directed learning (because no one actually forces you to learn at uni). It can also be a marker of a certain type of academic ability. More useful in some roles than others.

Now that more people live at home while at uni, and more people go, the low water line for ability has to be lower than it used to be and you may, or may not, be hiring a child. The way degrees a modularised now also I think results in more spoon feeding and bite sized courses closer to a school setting. Even graduate degrees can be like this. There are those PhDs (like me) who got on with it with limited guidance, and those who just execute the research they are instructed to do by their supervisor. Those people often have better theses on paper, and more publications, but are also often less equipped with things like initiative and capability for independent thought.

That's important aspect to what University was "in my day" and is today.

For many the (maybe) 1st year is learning how much beer you can drink (not for me as I went through that in school days) but the self-motivation, self-organisation, etc. is very important aspect to how a job applicant might cope in work environments.

My experience is that degree level courses are a lot more basic than they used to be. I have moderately recently done some degree courses and they were around the level of A-level stuff from "back in my days" (I did stuff at A-level the recent course thought was asking too much of degree students).

I've considered re-doing my 1st degree but a local University, sort of revise and update but the published syllabus is to basic I quickly decided it would be a waste of time.

 

[BoldonLad]

From watching youngsters talking about the recruitment challenges they are experiencing I'm finding it difficult to get an accurate feel for the market. Even back "in my day" there were some individuals who'd apply for loads of positions and still not get a job. Many of the reports are anecdotal interviewing to one or two people who've been unsuccessful.

One I saw a few days ago really highlighted the assumptions they make based on no foundation: a young girl who was declaring how her online interview must have been with an AI as she got a rejection within 2 hrs ... but when I was face to face interviewing some candidates quickly showed they were unsuitable so I'd reject them during the interview (not after 2 hrs) (took longer in those days as postal services were slower than e-mail of today), not face to face but terminate the interview early and be polite to them. Being rejected within 2 hrs doesn't indicate AI or non-AI interview yet this girl's account was not contested.

Maybe those talking about the challenges are just those being repeatedly unsuccessful and we're not hearing from the successful ones. My first 2 jobs I didn't even fill out a CV/application. Companies approached University seeking people from the course I was finishing and I was being slow about applying for anything so my supervisor gave them my name.

2 years into my career I was told of a job I really wanted but even though applications still open I didn't apply as they'd already had 700 applications.

Yes, I saw the interview with girl claiming AI interviews, presumably the same one you are speaking of.

I am always aware that my personal experience may not be typical, but, mostly I was basing my comments mostly on observation of younger members of the wider family (of whom there are quite a few, ie 50+ 😊), but, as I said, I accept my experience may not be typical.

 

[BoldonLad]

Degrees have in the past been a useful indicator of a young person's independence, in terms of living and self directed learning (because no one actually forces you to learn at uni). It can also be a marker of a certain type of academic ability. More useful in some roles than others.

Now that more people live at home while at uni, and more people go, the low water line for ability has to be lower than it used to be and you may, or may not, be hiring a child. The way degrees a modularised now also I think results in more spoon feeding and bite sized courses closer to a school setting. Even graduate degrees can be like this. There are those PhDs (like me) who got on with it with limited guidance, and those who just execute the research they are instructed to do by their supervisor. Those people often have better theses on paper, and more publications, but are also often less equipped with things like initiative and capability for independent thought.

Yes, would not disagree with any of that 😊

But, unless I read yourself and @Psamathe incorrectly, I think we are all saying that degrees have become devalued, we may disagree on the reasons for the devaluation, but, not the actual devaluation.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I turned down the offer of an MBA some years ago because I didn't need it and it would only have been to look good on my business card.

I had done some mentoring for a neighbour of mine who wanted to move into the same line of freelance work as me. He was head of the MBA course at a college near me and in the environment he was brought up in (Uganda pre Amin) it would have been considered an acceptable quid pro quo. He said that I wouldn't really have had to put in too much effort. Very tempting, but in the end not a difficult offer to refuse. I did evening classes in stained/leaded glass instead...much more interesting.

 

[briantrumpet]

I turned down the offer of an MBA some years ago because I didn't need it and it would only have been to look good on my business card.

I had done some mentoring for a neighbour of mine who wanted to move into the same line of freelance work as me. He was head of the MBA course at a college near me and in the environment he was brought up in (Uganda pre Amin) it would have been considered an acceptable quid pro quo. He said that I wouldn't really have had to put in too much effort. Very tempting, but in the end not a difficult offer to refuse. I did evening classes in stained/leaded glass instead...much more interesting.

Conversely, my music MA was just something I knew I had to do for the sake of learning/understanding more stuff, and it's one of the best things so I've ever done. Had no noticeable effect on my 'career'. But on me - yup.

 

[First Aspect]

Yes, would not disagree with any of that 😊

But, unless I read yourself and @Psamathe incorrectly, I think we are all saying that degrees have become devalued, we may disagree on the reasons for the devaluation, but, not the actual devaluation.

Yep they've been devalued as a whole. I think, however, that in the core subjects (which has probably changed since I were lad) this is less of an issue. If someone applies with a chemistry degree, it remains the case that you check the grade and which uni awarded it. Whereas if someone applies with a degree with a title you've never heard of (not an issue in my profession, because we all need technical degrees) you would tend to look more carefully. Perhaps, in context, something like "soil science" might give us pause for thought.

 

[First Aspect]

Conversely, my music MA was just something I knew I had to do for the sake of learning/understanding more stuff, and it's one of the best things so I've ever done. Had no noticeable effect on my 'career'. But on me - yup.

Would you have done it if it added £20k to your debt?

 

[briantrumpet]

Would you have done it if it added £20k to your debt?

No. It was £3k via the OU.

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

Would you have done it if it added £20k to your debt?

My MA cost me £3800 in fees, I absolutely would not have done it had it cost even £10k. Same for my Undergrad, regardless of how much personal value I took from it.

 

[First Aspect]

No. It was £3k via the OU.

I had to teach 12h a week during semesters to "earn" the rest of my stipend during my PhD.

But I came out with no money but no debt. Had I needed to take on debt during that 6 year period of my PhD, I may not have done it.

For me it was simply a deferral of real life and income. (I had a few undergrad rowing friends who moved on a year or 18 months before me and I still occasionally dream I am on campus getting embarrassingly older and still trying to write up. I also occasionally conflate this with forgetting a set of exams to cover all my undergrad work, and I wake up very anxious indeed.)

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

Maybe, just maybe, some people like driving around in a newer car, and are happy to accept that the finance cost is the cost of owning it.
You know, a bit like people buying a new bike every few years, or anything that depreciates in value.
Or anything else new for that matter.
They're effectively writing off the cost against their perceived enjoyment.

Of course they do, and no problem at all with that. My worry is people in debt adding further to said debt buying things they cannot afford. A good mate of mine owed £200k to the bank and felt it was a good idea to spend £10k he had made from labouring jobs on a 2nd hand Merc.

Undoubtedly many people taking things on finance will have budgeted accordingly, but I suspect a decent number will also just be adding to existing debt.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm old enough to remember when the only thing you could get a bank loan for was home improvements or a car. Easy credit has funded a different attitude to risk amongst younger people I think. I think people my age were/are more cautious about over extending ourselves. Perhaps that's partially because we remember when mortgage interest rates rocketed and money got tight very quickly, partially because our parents (mine certainly) never had the money to be anything but conservative with their spending. A lot of our attitude to money comes from our background.

 

[BoldonLad]

To me, debt is like gambling or drinking, most people do it, to some degree. Most people "survive" or even prosper from their indulgence,, but, some people are reckless (for whatever reason), or, perhaps just plain unlucky (if you believe in luck) and it all goes tits up.

 

[First Aspect]

Of course they do, and no problem at all with that. My worry is people in debt adding further to said debt buying things they cannot afford. A good mate of mine owed £200k to the bank and felt it was a good idea to spend £10k he had made from labouring jobs on a 2nd hand Merc.

Undoubtedly many people taking things on finance will have budgeted accordingly, but I suspect a decent number will also just be adding to existing debt.

PCPs are an odd form of debt though, because they are secured against the car itself. If you don't keep payments up, your exposure is the amount you borrowed, less the current value of the car, until the two converge at the end of the deal.

In theory you could have more value in the car than the balloon payment, but a dealer will never give you more, and you would need to find another buyer who would. Since there dealerships effectively set market price by this mechanism, that's also unlikely.

Since interest rates have gone up, more people are now leasing. So they never own the car at all.

 

[BoldonLad]

PCPs are an odd form of debt though, because they are secured against the car itself. If you don't keep payments up, your exposure is the amount you borrowed, less the current value of the car, until the two converge at the end of the deal.

In theory you could have more value in the car than the balloon payment, but a dealer will never give you more, and you would need to find another buyer who would. Since there dealerships effectively set market price by this mechanism, that's also unlikely.

Since interest rates have gone up, more people are now leasing. So they never own the car at all.

Daughter No3 had a Mini Cooper on PCP, she did actually manage to sell it for significantly more than the dealer's residual value (or whatever it is called), that was three cars ago, so, about 9 years ago.

I seem to recall a brief scare relating to PCP deals, or to be more exact, the Companies providing them. If I recall correctly, the scare was that the depreciation on Electric cars was making the business model unsustainable. Nothing appears to have come of it (yet).