BRFR Cake Stop 'breaking news' miscellany

[Psamathe]

I cast my vote by mail a few days ago, and subsequently found a tactical voting website suggesting I'd made the best choice to guard against Reform. Phew.

For me the tactical sites have Reform winning but the "tactical" vote to keep them out is for Conservative and there is no way I'm going there.

So I consider myself free to vote according to what I consider the "least bad" option.

 

[secretsqirrel]

And?

I'm all for vicious caricatures/cartoons, but certain tropes have dark histories, and cartoonists must (or should) know and avoid them, unless they positively want to link into those dark histories, whether that's antisemitic (hooked noses, etc), refugees as vermin (IIRC, Matt has done that one in the Telegraph), etc.

I loved the viciousness of Scarfe: you could immediately see who his targets were, but as far as I know he never used lazy and incendiary tropes.

View attachment 14912

I guess they proceed with caution with Badenoch

 

[First Aspect]

I think if you are trying to find a link you will find one. Dude is in the green party, has a big nose and a gap in his teeth. Are they supposed to depict him as Bradley Cooper just because he's also Jewish?

(Fwiw I noticed that cartoons were relatively kind on Badenoch as well, which I put down to her being a bit of a non entity, rather than the fact she is black).

 

[briantrumpet]

I think if you are trying to find a link you will find one. Dude is in the green party, has a big nose and a gap in his teeth. Are they supposed to depict him as Bradley Cooper just because he's also Jewish?

(Fwiw I noticed that cartoons were relatively kind on Badenoch as well, which I put down to her being a bit of a non entity, rather than the fact she is black).

The Jewish one is well established and is well understood amongst cartoonists. I suggest you ask some Jewish people about them rather than say "if you are trying to find one you will find one". If you need any convincing about the nose thing, have a look through this pdf, and it's either a quite *incredible* coincidence, or a deliberate reference.

https://antisemitism.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Antisemitic-imagery-May-2020.pdf

FWIW, the Graun ended up apologising for another Rowson cartoon that, oops, just happened to include, totally accidentally (obvs), an octopus. I mean, who wouldn't just include an octopus randomly in a cartoon about a Jewish person?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-g...outgoing-bbc-chair-criticized-as-antisemitic/

 

[First Aspect]

You can't post some depictions and expect comment on some other depictions.

You could be right, but by the same token, you could be seeing cartoons of a politician who says some dumb things quite aggressively.

I guess flip it around and ask what would be acceptable?

 

[briantrumpet]

You can't post some depictions and expect comment on some other depictions.

You could be right, but by the same token, you could be seeing cartoons of a politician who says some dumb things quite aggressively.

I guess flip it around and ask what would be acceptable?

I'd suggest that cartoonists would simply be wise to avoid the well-known tropes, unless someone habitually carries around an octopus, for instance. It's such a well-trodden path it's not hard, if it's your job. Claiming innocence would be as credible as you turning up to a work do in blackface and saying you were only celebrating Robertson's jam and thought it would be funny.

 

[icowden]

You can't post some depictions and expect comment on some other depictions.

You totally can.

You could be right, but by the same token, you could be seeing cartoons of a politician who says some dumb things quite aggressively.

No one has an issue with that. It's the use of racist tropes that is being questioned - the hook nose is quite a prominent one. It's a bit like doing oversized fat lips and nose for black politicians.

I guess flip it around and ask what would be acceptable?

Not using racist tropes?

 

[briantrumpet]

You totally can.


No one has an issue with that. It's the use of racist tropes that is being questioned - the hook nose is quite a prominent one. It's a bit like doing oversized fat lips and nose for black politicians.


Not using racist tropes?

This, on all points. It's really not hard.

 

[First Aspect]

I'd suggest that cartoonists would simply be wise to avoid the well-known tropes, unless someone habitually carries around an octopus, for instance. It's such a well-trodden path it's not hard, if it's your job. Claiming innocence would be as credible as you turning up to a work do in blackface and saying you were only celebrating Robertson's jam and thought it would be funny.

For the avoidance of doubt I've not participated in a B&W minstrels show for a while, and I have burned all my Noddy originals.

It looks to me like three of the four cartoonists avoided well known tropes, albeit by not that much.

Pick this one apart. Is it racist because it exaggerates her features?

 

[Ian H]

You totally can.


No one has an issue with that. It's the use of racist tropes that is being questioned - the hook nose is quite a prominent one. It's a bit like doing oversized fat lips and nose for black politicians.


Not using racist tropes?

The thing that stood out for me was that all the cartoons depicted him as fat (as in generic fat Jewish money-lender), whereas he's anything but. That was was finally tipped it into racism for me.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The Jewish one is well established and is well understood amongst cartoonists. I suggest you ask some Jewish people about them rather than say "if you are trying to find one you will find one". If you need any convincing about the nose thing, have a look through this pdf, and it's either a quite *incredible* coincidence, or a deliberate reference.

https://antisemitism.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Antisemitic-imagery-May-2020.pdf

FWIW, the Graun ended up apologising for another Rowson cartoon that, oops, just happened to include, totally accidentally (obvs), an octopus. I mean, who wouldn't just include an octopus randomly in a cartoon about a Jewish person?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-g...outgoing-bbc-chair-criticized-as-antisemitic/

There's a whole thread on whether an octopus is an antisemitic trope or not. I think it is, but the general view on here seemed to be that it wasn't.

I would say it's part of the skill of the artist to exaggerate and charicature without quite crossing the line. That's difficult when your subject already has strong facial features. Who decides where the line is? The subject? The artist's intention? Or the eye of the beholder?

 

[First Aspect]

How about these?

 

[First Aspect]

Here's the whole cartoon. Looks like Leonard Rossiter to me.

It is very easy to lob out the "racist" accusations, very hard in practice to judge what crosses the line.

 

[First Aspect]

This, on all points. It's really not hard.

If it's not hard, comment on the other cartoons.

It literally IS hard, that's the point.

 

[briantrumpet]

If it's not hard, comment on the other cartoons.

It literally IS hard, that's the point.

No, it's not. None of the other are referencing well-worn and recognised tropes. If one of Badenoch had ink-black skin and exaggerated thick red lips, there would rightfully be outrage.

Can you see any reason why these books aren't still available? They were part of my childhood...