But Where Are You Really From?

[Fab Foodie]

If I , or anyone else troubled to write a long essay going over the many points already made here - would you bother to read it??

The problem is not that no one has explained the reasons for language usage changing over time

The problem seems to lie elsewhere -
It's one or possibly all of the following

Poor reading comprehension on your part .

Difficulty processing and retaining information.

Or that you're really not that interested in answers or learning , and are only interested in trying to wind folk up.

That gets pretty dull pretty quick.

Here you said..


That you'd understood
Now you're saying you don't ...

Why should anyone make more efforts to explain when you're so resistant to even trying to understand??

Try re reading the thread whilst engaging your brain.

God loves a trier....

 

[Deleted member 28]

If I , or anyone else troubled to write a long essay going over the many points already made here - would you bother to read it??

The problem is not that no one has explained the reasons for language usage changing over time

The problem seems to lie elsewhere -
It's one or possibly all of the following

Poor reading comprehension on your part .

Difficulty processing and retaining information.

Or that you're really not that interested in answers or learning , and are only interested in trying to wind folk up.

That gets pretty dull pretty quick.

Here you said..


That you'd understood
Now you're saying you don't ...

Why should anyone make more efforts to explain when you're so resistant to even trying to understand??

Try re reading the thread whilst engaging your brain.

If my summing up of the situation is correct then I clearly do understand, and also correct in my assumption that it's all complete bullsh*t.

Someone, somewhere will always have something to moan about and expect 'the white man ' to jump through hoops in order not to offend, thought as much.

 

[icowden]

If my summing up of the situation is correct then I clearly do understand, and also correct in my assumption that it's all complete bullsh*t.

It isn't, you clearly don't and you are incorrect.
Does that help?

 

[mudsticks]

God loves a trier....

Thank the 'lord' then, that I believe in no such entity and can happily quit with conscience clear...

Although if there were such a celestial being I reckon I'd definitely have got a couple of stars🌟🌟 on my 'effort' sticker sheet by now 🙄

As 'the man' himself said "I'd try once then leave them to it.. "

Like an idiot I made the mistake of continuing...😇

 

[matticus]

I tried to explain that innocent words get tainted when they become associated with prejudice, and so new ones are needed until the underlying prejuidice is overcome.

I completely understand the good intentions behind this; but doesn't it seem like there might be a better way? After all, if we just take black/white prejudice, it is unlikely to go away in the next few decades, so are we going to keep going round this loop:
- get upset by tainted use of word
- argue about new word to use
- argue with people who forget to use the new word(s)
- argue with people who insist that the old "better" word was fine
- argue with Shep about whose idea this was in the first place
- get new word mostly accepted
- get upset by tainted use of word
- ...

We fixed the problem with "Irish" - mostly - so doesn't that show that a better way might work? I'm a lot happier with how the "Irish" thing has worked out, than with how we've tackled racism in the many years since replacements for "nigger" were first posited.

Which is more important to address - the words or the prejudice? Is writing new language guides just a substitute for fixing the real problem?

 

[icowden]

Which is more important to address - the words or the prejudice? Is writing new language guides just a substitute for fixing the real problem?

Yes and no. It's a difficult area to address because of a combination of human nature and history. We have soe biological programming that makes us resistant to change. We like to be comfortable and we are programmed to like people who look like us. We mirror behaviours and body language if we want to get on with people.
The challenge is to unlearn some of the difference learning that we gain whilst growing up. If you ask a class of 5 year olds of mixed ethnicities, to describe one of their classmates who isn't in the room, the colour of their skin will not be the feature that they go to first. I have first hand experience of this when teaching for Stagecoach Mitcham about 20 years ago. Someone was absent - I had the name but couldn't picture who they were. The girl was described as "she has two hair puffs", "she's taller than x" etc. None of the children said "she's black" or "she's mixed race" or "she has brown skin". To them, that was not a distinguishing difference.

Of course that gets reinforced over time by the way different people are treated. Robert Llewellyn has story here about travelling with Danny John Jules that illustrates the difference between being white skinned and black:
https://llewellyn.substack.com/p/where-are-you-really-from

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Which is more important to address - the words or the prejudice? Is writing new language guides just a substitute for fixing the real problem?

Not a lot of progress on this thread since I was last here (although some appear to be trying). Oppressed folk creating new language and then objecting to it's use, just to annoy Shep. And some other committee writing language guides when they could be more usefully 'fixing the real problem'.
Of course 'fixing the real problem' might involve change and some people aren't too keen on that apparently.

 

[matticus]

Not a lot of progress on this thread since I was last here.

Well it's a good thing you're here then!

 

[BoldonLad]

Yes and no. It's a difficult area to address because of a combination of human nature and history. We have soe biological programming that makes us resistant to change. We like to be comfortable and we are programmed to like people who look like us. We mirror behaviours and body language if we want to get on with people.
The challenge is to unlearn some of the difference learning that we gain whilst growing up. If you ask a class of 5 year olds of mixed ethnicities, to describe one of their classmates who isn't in the room, the colour of their skin will not be the feature that they go to first. I have first hand experience of this when teaching for Stagecoach Mitcham about 20 years ago. Someone was absent - I had the name but couldn't picture who they were. The girl was described as "she has two hair puffs", "she's taller than x" etc. None of the children said "she's black" or "she's mixed race" or "she has brown skin". To them, that was not a distinguishing difference.

Of course that gets reinforced over time by the way different people are treated. Robert Llewellyn has story here about travelling with Danny John Jules that illustrates the difference between being white skinned and black:
https://llewellyn.substack.com/p/where-are-you-really-from

Well, if they were of 'mixed ethnicities" then, perhaps, skin colour wasn't a distinguishing feature, and, that is why the children didn't use it? Smart children, perhaps.

 

[icowden]

Well, if they were of 'mixed ethnicities" then, perhaps, skin colour wasn't a distinguishing feature, and, that is why the children didn't use it? Smart children, perhaps.

It was, in that that the group had white, black, mixed-race and asian children, but skin colour wasn't the feature that they felt was important.

 

[Deleted member 28]

It isn't, you clearly don't and you are incorrect.
Does that help?

According to stickymud I did understand and my summing up was accurate.

 

[mudsticks]

According to stickymud I did understand and my summing up was accurate.

Nope I said neither of those things..

I said you seemed to be getting a slight glimmer of enlightenment..

That there may be a lot more to all this, instead of your first reactionary assumption that "It's all just a load of bollix"


That it is in fact fact complicated, and involves lots of different angles, and considerations.

The main problem here seems to be either that you really are too dim to compute what is being written, or else you're being wilfully ignorant.

The fact that you're now suggesting it's all just a 'trick' to befuddle the poor beleaguered 'white man' also suggests more than a whiff of gammony racist in there..

None of it is a particularly good look, but at least we could forgive the lack of mental capacity on your behalf as not being your fault..

The rest of it, not so much


Anyway, the old saying about playing chess with a pigeon springs to mind 🤔

 

[matticus]

The fact that you're now suggesting it's all just a 'trick' to befuddle the poor beleaguered 'white man' also suggests more than a whiff of gammony racist in there..

None of it is a particularly good look, but at least we could forgive the lack of mental capacity on your behalf as not being your fault..

Phew. Normal service resumed!

 

[AuroraSaab]

Not a lot of progress on this thread since I was last here (although some appear to be trying). Oppressed folk creating new language and then objecting to it's use, just to annoy Shep.

Isn't Shep's point that it isn't the 'oppressed folk' who came up with BAME? It was bureaucrats or academics who felt it was an improvement on whatever went before. And now it turns out the oppressed folk aren't too keen on it (understandably) and it's falling out of favour. This isn't language changing organically by concensus, it's imposed language from above by those who think they know best.

 

[All uphill]

Isn't Shep's point that it isn't the 'oppressed folk' who came up with BAME? It was bureaucrats or academics who felt it was an improvement on whatever went before. And now it turns out the oppressed folk aren't too keen on it (understandably) and it's falling out of favour. This isn't language changing organically by concensus, it's imposed language from above by those who think they know best.

I agree with this, up to a point.

Can we agree there is utility in a term that describes people who may suffer discrimination because of their skin tone? Utility in academic papers, record keeping, etc by academics and bureaucrats.

If those people create a handy term for their work that's useful and fine?

If, then, some people object to being lumped into a group not of their choosing that's understandable, too?

So what's the solution?

Stop collecting data and doing research? Impose a word?

I have no answers and prefer, in my little world, to use individual's given names.