But Where Are You Really From?

[Unkraut]

OK now I know you are making this up.

What, pray, am I making up?

Intrigued of Tunbridge Wells

 

[winjim]

Dictionaries describe usage.

I was gonna say that, it was well and truly drummed into me at school. Words mean whatever we mean them to mean. The English language has no rules, only conventions, we are not French.

 

[newfhouse]

we are not French

I don’t know why Shep and Unkraut don’t go and live there if they like it so much.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Dictionaries describe usage. They don't arbitrate in disputes. The primary definition hasn't been removed.

Here's the definition of 'dictionary' from the Cambridge Dictionary itself.

"A1
a book that contains a list of words in alphabetical order and explains their meanings, or gives a word for them in another language; an electronic product giving similar information on a computer, smartphone, etc.:"

Using their own definition of what they themselves are, they have explained the meaning of 'Woman' to now include men. The word Woman has never included men. The fact that a very small number of people want it to does not make it so. There's no additional meaning to 'woman' other than 'adult human female' that doesn't make a nonsense of the concept of definitions.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Here's the definition of 'dictionary' from the Cambridge Dictionary itself.

"A1
a book that contains a list of words in alphabetical order and explains their meanings, or gives a word for them in another language; an electronic product giving similar information on a computer, smartphone, etc.:"

Using their own definition of what they themselves are, they have explained the meaning of 'Woman' to now include men. The word Woman has never included men. The fact that a very small number of people want it to does not make it so. There's no additional meaning to 'woman' other than 'adult human female' that doesn't make a nonsense of the concept of definitions.

The ordinary meaning can be extended to include Trans women. The dictionary describes that usage.

I know you disagree with that concept but that won't change the way others use the word.

 

[winjim]

I think we should be clear that they've done exactly the same think with the word 'man'. You know, lest we be accused of getting a bit hysterical about things.

 

[Unkraut]

I don’t know why Shep and Unkraut don’t go and live there if they like it so much.

You'd never catch me moving abroad to live amongst a load of foreigners ...

 

[Deleted member 28]

I don’t know why Shep and Unkraut don’t go and live there if they like it so much.

Where would that be then, you been on the sherry?

 

[AuroraSaab]

People can use any word in whatever way they like, but words that are grounded in material physical reality are rendered meaningless by extending their definition. You could extend the meaning of the word 'dead' to include people who are alive, but it wouldn't make it so.

Your linguistic gymnastics reduces the word 'woman' to a feeling in your head. And if you genuinely believe that being a woman is a feeling in your head then the logical result of that is there are no words left to describe or analyse biological women as a specific group with unique needs. Because we could all be women, all 8 billion of us.

If you genuinely think men can be described as women (rather than trans identified males or transwomen) then you must believe that men can be housed in women's prisons, domestic violence refuges, women's hospital wards, can take women's scholarships and prizes, and enter the women's class in sports. Because if you don't think this, you don't really think they are women.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I think we should be clear that they've done exactly the same think with the word 'man'. You know, lest we be accused of getting a bit hysterical about things.

And that is also a nonsense. But let's be honest, very little changes for men by redefining 'man' to include women. A lot changes when you change 'woman' to include men. That you dismiss women's concerns about this as being 'hysterical' is tiresome, age old misogyny in itself.

I notice they don't seem to have extended the definition of 'black' in the 'black people' reference to include white people who identify as black. Seems a bit inconsistent.

 

[winjim]

'Women's concerns'. It was two middle aged blokes talking about it and I have sincere doubts that concern for or about women is particularly high on either of their agendas.


In case it's not blindingly obvious, my use of the word 'hysterical' was deliberate.

 

[newfhouse]

Where would that be then, you been on the sherry?

France, dear boy. Do keep up.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Odd that you think that just because it was 2 blokes in the clip that women haven't been talking about it as well.

Just out of interest, Winjim, do you think that 50% of the population deserve to have a unique word that describes only them and their shared experiences? That identifies them as a specific group with particular needs. It can't be women because that now includes men, whose experiences are different. What word should it be, if any?

 

[winjim]

I'm not sure about 'deserve'. Personally I'm broadly happy for the category 'women' to include cis women, trans women, and trans men depending on context. I'm also broadly happy for the category 'men' to include cis men, trans men and trans women.

What I'm not happy about is for two blokes on a TV show, one of them an elected MP, using this discussion, and thereby exploiting women both cis and trans, in order to stoke the fires of a culture war and futher their own agenda.

I'm not quite sure how we got here from the OP. I should probably stop.

 

[newfhouse]

What I'm not happy about is for two blokes on a TV show, one of them an elected MP, using this discussion, and thereby exploiting women both cis and trans, in order to stoke the fires of a culture war and futher their own agenda.

Quite. If anyone thinks those idiots are on the side of women, however defined, they should probably give their heads a wobble.