Can the (Met) police ever change?

[glasgowcyclist]

I don't expect this is limited to the Met but after recent incidents, including the conviction of one of their own for the abduction, rape and murder of a woman, I would have hoped they'd be doing everything possible to get rid of misogyny within their ranks.

This information from Fiona Hamilton of The Times suggests it's got a long way to go.

(Warning: Contains disturbing dialogue between police officers.)


View: https://twitter.com/Fhamiltontimes/status/1488475474628120579?s=20&t=gSOGwXPkw9n72cmbf5mq2A

 

[AuroraSaab]

You have to wonder. After all the stuff of the last few years, the fact that some officers feel confident enough to talk like this to each other suggests the message from the higher ups either isn't getting through or the admonishment aren't enough to discourage this kind of behaviour. It undermines public confidence in the ability of these officers to do aspects of their job.

I'm not sure how you stop people like this getting past the vetting procedure but it's alarming to think these officers could be investigating hate crimes, sexual abuse cases, or domestic violence incidents.

 

[Milkfloat]

I went to school with and remain friends with a Commander in the Met, equivalent to an Assistant Chief Constable. When we have have spoken about topical items in the press involving the Met, he points out that each Commander sets their own culture within their teams so there is no single culture within the Met. There is no way to vet the 'bad eggs' out 100% but bit by bit it does seem to be improving, probably the biggest issue is that in some areas individual officers feel they cannot speak out and push back when they see poor behaviours from colleagues and superiors.

 

[mudsticks]

I don't expect this is limited to the Met but after recent incidents, including the conviction of one of their own for the abduction, rape and murder of a woman, I would have hoped they'd be doing everything possible to get rid of misogyny within their ranks.

This information from Fiona Hamilton of The Times suggests it's got a long way to go.

(Warning: Contains disturbing dialogue between police officers.)


View: https://twitter.com/Fhamiltontimes/status/1488475474628120579?s=20&t=gSOGwXPkw9n72cmbf5mq2A

Sadly its not as if these people and attitudes are confined to the Met or even the police 'service' these people their attitudes, and behaviour are products of our society, they don't arise out of nowhere, but they diminish us all .

On some level they're brought up or 'socialised' to think and behave like this - even look at the way our current PM has spoken about women
- we can't just pretend that they're only small insignificant groups of people - who only inhabit spaces 'over there' somewhere far far away .

Once you start to look around the internet - or wherever - you see and hear it in many many places - you even get whiffs of it on here - but if you challenge it you're just being 'over - sensitive' , or a feminazi or whatever.

Its often seems to considered 'political' or controversial to call out sexism at the other place.

You'll get plenty of eye rolling or from people on here who really cant bear to be challenged on their prejudices - or language usage.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Sadly its not as if these people and attitudes are confined to the Met or even the police 'service' these people their attitudes, and behaviour are products of our society, they don't arise out of nowhere, but they diminish us all .

I get that. Police recruit from society and that is made up of all sorts of people. Given the nature of the job and the many instances of brutality towards women and minorities, it might be an idea to introduce psychological testing as part of the recruitment and training process. (If they already do that then it isn't working.)

The offensive communications listed in the tweet in my first post appear to come from this report: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/si...ion Hotton Learning report - January 2022.pdf

 

[matticus]

I get that. Police recruit from society and that is made up of all sorts of people. Given the nature of the job and the many instances of brutality towards women and minorities, it might be an idea to introduce psychological testing as part of the recruitment and training process. (If they already do that then it isn't working.)

You need to find 160,000 people who can pass that testing - as well as pass the other ability tests, AND choose to do this (occasionally dangerous) job, for less money than an MP, lawyer, doctor.

Something has to give :-/

 

[mudsticks]

I get that. Police recruit from society and that is made up of all sorts of people. Given the nature of the job and the many instances of brutality towards women and minorities, it might be an idea to introduce psychological testing as part of the recruitment and training process. (If they already do that then it isn't working.)

The offensive communications listed in the tweet in my first post appear to come from this report: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Operation Hotton Learning report - January 2022.pdf

A bit like in the German stylee...

In Germany, Confronting Shameful Legacy Is Essential Part of Police Training​

In the postwar era, Germany fundamentally redesigned law enforcement to prevent past atrocities from ever repeating. Its approach may hold lessons for police reform everywhere.
...
Germans have applied the lessons of their unique and horrid history to every aspect of their postwar democracy, not least to how they police their country. Those changes were partly imposed on Germany after the war and took decades to work their way through attitudes and institutions. But over time they have become pillars of German identity
...
Even the more elaborate training courses fall far short of Germany’s minimum standards in terms of entry requirements, length and intensity.

“Before they even start, applicants have to pass personality and intelligence tests,” said Margarete Koppers, Berlin’s attorney general, who previously ran the Berlin police force.

Once accepted, training in Germany takes at least two-and-a-half years at an academy. Cadets are not just taught how to handle a gun but obliged to take classes in law, ethics and police history. When they graduate they are rewarded with high trust levels in society and civil servant status that guarantees decent pay and job security.

In another postwar innovation, German police officers do not handle minor infractions like parking tickets and noise ordinances, which are handled by uniformed but unarmed city employees.

“This was an idea of the Allies, they wanted to demilitarize and civilize police matters,” said Ralf Poscher, director for the department of public law at the Max Planck Institute for the Study of Crime, Security and Law.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

You need to find 160,000 people who can pass that testing - as well as pass the other ability tests, AND choose to do this (occasionally dangerous) job,

Yes, that's correct. Probably a lot already could.

I don't think we should let (or leave) the wife-beaters and potential rapists in the job just because they can run a 5.4 shuttle test.

 

[the snail]

You need to find 160,000 people who can pass that testing - as well as pass the other ability tests, AND choose to do this (occasionally dangerous) job, for less money than an MP, lawyer, doctor.

Something has to give :-/

I doubt very much that there is a test that can reliably identify a future rapist, but there needs to be a culture where misogyny isn't tolerated, and it is the norm to call out misogynistic behaviour.

 

[mudsticks]

You need to find 160,000 people who can pass that testing - as well as pass the other ability tests, AND choose to do this (occasionally dangerous) job, for less money than an MP, lawyer, doctor.

Something has to give :-/

But abusive nasty pieces of work is surely not what has to give..

If we accept them, then policing just got a whole lot harder - and less effective - zero trust or respect in either direction.

Same old same old need for good systems development - and investment up front - as per the German system .

Now all we have to do is elect people who will implement all this, and be prepared to get us to pay for it .

I doubt very much that there is a test that can reliably identify a future rapist, but there needs to be a culture where misogyny isn't tolerated, and it is the norm to call out misogynistic behaviour.

There does indeed need to be this culture..

Everywhere of course.

What did we ever do to be treated with such contempt , and violence .,,??

 

[Ian H]

From the Guardian report: The IOPC said the behaviour was part of an offensive Met police culture, not just rogue individuals. “We believe these incidents are not isolated or simply the behaviour of a few ‘bad apples’.”

 

[swansonj]

I doubt very much that there is a test that can reliably identify a future rapist, but there needs to be a culture where misogyny isn't tolerated, and it is the norm to call out misogynistic behaviour.

Yes, following the shining example of CycleChat. Oh, wait...

 

[matticus]

But abusive nasty pieces of work is surely not what has to give..

If we accept them, then policing just got a whole lot harder - and less effective - zero trust or respect in either direction.

Same old same old need for good systems development - and investment up front - as per the German system .

Now all we have to do is elect people who will implement all this, and be prepared to get us to pay for it .

Probably worth noting that I haven't expressed any approval of "abusive nasty pieces of work".
As for paying for it: well yes, I hope that was clear from my post, this stuff costs money which we (as a nation, that is) don't seem keen to spend.

 

[newfhouse]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...rected-in-london-to-highlight-police-misogyny

 

[mudsticks]

Beat me too it ..👍🏼

'Pro' activism ..